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Sept. 2, 2011, 2:12 a.m. | Ukraine — by Yuriy Onyshkiv
U.S. officials describe Ukraine as kleptocracy in Wikileaks cables.
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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 3:50 a.m.    

Same story as yesterday and the day before and the day before.

Is there not a case for the people of Ukraine?

Cannot the Administration, the Courts and the Oligarchs be prosecuted for the raping of the Ukrainian people?

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 5:20 p.m.    

No, apparently the only one who is being prosecuted is the one (Tymoshenko) who saved the nation several billion dollars through one reprivatization and further billions by eliminating the gas middlemen.

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Anonymous Sept. 4, 2011, 4:20 a.m.    

They should ahve prosecuted Yushchenko but they haven't. Why is that?

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 6:35 a.m.    

as long as majority of the people dont care about it, that wont change. I said &quot;dont care&quot;, that is not so exact, more a mix of &quot;and so, what can we do? we re simple citizens&quot; added to a feeling by so many that if they were in the position of those oligarchs, they would also try to maximize their profits by whatever way is possible.

Two short examples: one with a friend accountant in kiev, complaining about still having to live with flat mates at 30+ y.o. because of low income. I told her about some corruption news like the ones described here, and said that s a good reason for ukrainians to stay vigilant. But she told me I was a hypocrite as she was certain i would do the same if i was in their position. I said that no, i would not do that as i feel some social responsibility we in the west have some sense of (kind of). She said that she would do the same and try to make as much as possible.

Second example, i was having a beer with young business managers i've known for few years, and explained them how, going by car from ukraine to poland, i was offered at the border to pay 30 euros to &quot;go faster&quot;. I told them i proudly refused as i m against corruption of all kind, and that i waited 8 hours looking at luxury cars passing the check in two minutes. I thought they would congratulate me for doing so, but quite surprisingly they laughed and said that yes, i had acted well, but that they would never have waited 8 hours and would have definitly payed to go faster. When i countered that it s bad as it s unfair for poor people, that such behavior at hospital for example are threatening poors' lives, they answered that life was tough and only the strong survive.

So for me, we can complain as much as we want about ukrainians' situation, as long as they, as a nation, will not change their attitude about their own society, ie complaining about their own life but doing the same wrong actions once they are able to, things wont change.

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 7:50 a.m.    

Бог помагає Українії !

It must change in each one.

Democracy gets what you deserve.

PRESENTATION IS EVERYTHING !

Ukrainians are contaminated, Ukraine needs baptized, Ukrainian is just ours.

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 7:55 a.m.    

Good observation. I agree 100%. The problem is that the majority of Ukrainians actually think that the rest of the world works in the same way as Ukraine. Very sad.

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:34 p.m.    

Ukraine needs to stop looking for that messiah or for someonelse to fix its problems. It needs to take collective responsibility for its own governance. This can only be achieved under a full parliamentary system of government. Remove the president is the first step towards independence and self governance,

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:22 p.m.    

I think Ukrainians do care but they have been let down in the past. Yushchenko betrayed the trust and confidence of the people of Ukraine. To this extent they think why bother there will be no change. Yushchenko betrayed Ukraine and democracy itself.

Yanukovych has demonstrated that he is just concerned about power not Ukraine or democracy.

Most Ukrainians just ignore governments which makes it that much harder.

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 8:24 a.m.    

Agreed! They are under the illusion that their 'normal' is the world's normal. Not so.

Very sad indeed!

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:09 a.m.    

First of all, I have personal experience evidencing the fact that money WILL in fact buy you better treatment. But that aside, even if what you say is true that it may &quot;reduce the time you sit in a waiting room&quot; -- that alone can be construed as &quot;better medical care&quot;. In Ukraine, people die from preventable/highly treatable diseases by being forced to wait to long for care -- any care, even poor care -- because they haven't the $1000 to pay to a hospital administrator, $300 to pay to the pocket of a technician for a simple ultrasound test, or the half-dozen $50 dollar bills to drop quietly into the pockets of head nurses or consulting (so-called) physicians (many of whom more than likely bought their medical degrees in the first place). A close friend was even required to pay for not one but three EKG tests (with equipment dating to around 1970) before he could be examined for a compressed disk in his back. Healthcare in Ukraine -- if we can even call it that -- is almost 100% a matter of black-money (bribes). To believe otherwise is simply delusional.

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:25 p.m.    

You say the healthcare system in Ukraine works? You are either hopelessly naive or a paid shill working for the Yanukovich government. The healthcare system in Ukraine is at least 30 years behind the times and, worse, it is infested with a culture of under-the-table payments to administrators and doctors to receive even poor medical services.

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 4:04 p.m.    

i did not imply that ukrainians dont have moral standards, or ideal, obviously they have as they can judge their country s situation, that most of them consider very low (even if, in my opinion, many compare it to an image they have of western europe and north america that is partial and whiter than it is in really), the biggest problem is dropped in front of what they consider is the new normality.

i m not a sociologist so you could make fun of this opinion, but i think the faith in society, the image that it s good to work for the community, which was a base of the soviet claimed values, fell here with the soviet regime. Now there s such a feeling of fatality, feeling that things cant be changed by the people, that the moral standards are less a base for decision and action than basic day to day selfish pragmatism.

In my opinion, the most important thing average ukranian should be jealous of when looking at the USA is not the wealth, but fact that many there have this feeling that someone's action, at someone's level, can change the system. It can be this woman staying in her tent in front of the white house (but maybe she s crazy?) or more ordinarly those individuals who move from a state to another during elections campaigns, find a new home and new work, just to have the right to vote in a state that may switch to their political side. That s what is missing the most in ukraine: this feeling that someone can change the system, because society is made of all its individuals. When i talk to my ukrainianss friends here, they say i m too much a idealist, that it does not work this way, that they tried to change things in 2004/5 and it did not work (i also was on maiden during orange revolution, i trusted, obviously wrongly, the orange people).

By they way i m not american, i m french. And i agree that corruption can be found everywhere. For example, there s a new scandal here that the president (Sarkozy) asked for spying on a journalist to find out who was his government source for some big affair. So yes, wrong action can be in every country, the main difference is how the people reacts to it. I bet that if a politician was found guilty to have tried to falsify presidential election in his own interest in france, his political carrier would be completly over and he would spend some years in jail.

In ukraine? such cheater can be five years after elected president. It sadly says a lot.

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:31 p.m.    

that someone's action, at someone's level, can change the system&quot;

I think this is more tur in Canada. Australia and England then in America. But yes Americans think they can but in reality they can not. They can not even commit themselves to a national health system which every other democratic state has. Teh US System is designed to prevent change not make it happen

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:19 p.m.    

Solution:

First step: change the constitution and remove power from the president and establish a full parliamentary system of democracy.

Second Step: reform the parliament to make it more accountable and representative. One vote one value equal representation.

Third step: reform the courts, Adopt a common law adversarial system of law

Fourth step: In association with the Venice commission re-draft and realign Ukraine's legal system and laws tp better facilitate integration with Europe.

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 10:51 a.m.    

I feel I have to respond to your comments. You imply that I and my fellow countrymen have no moral standards and should follow the example of yourself and other countries. Perhaps you would recommend the American way? I personally find it amusing that so much is written and spoken about the levels of corruption here in Ukraine, usually by people living in countries with far more corruption than even we experienced here during the break- up of the union. Before you disagree look to your own countries faults. With regards to your comment about patient care. No amount of money will buy you better treatment, although it may reduce the time you sit in a waiting room. Not having money will not exclude you from receiving care but of course does make the purchase of non free medication harder. I can only wonder why you should wish us to change a system that works perfectly well for something along the lines of Britain or America. Why mend what isn’t broken?

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 12:35 p.m.    

Have you ever looked at the position Ukraine holds in international corruption, etc. ratings? Why do millions of Ukraine citizens elect to live and work abroad? I don't know of any other country having such a high percentage of expats, do you?

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:28 p.m.    

Whatever you do do not use the USA as a model or example. Look to Europe Canada or Australia but not America.

America was built on the back of criminal activity, guns, slavery and mobs rule. The US has assassinated more Presidents then any nation. They certainly are not a democratic nation.

look to your immediate Melbourne Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, Romania even Moldova is better off then Ukraine.

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 9:02 a.m.    

Critics see the criminal charges as retaliation by her enemies, including RosUkrEnergo’s billionaire co-owner, Dmytro Firtash. He is close to Yanukovych's administration, which denies any interference in the judicial process.

Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/112083/#ixzz1WlwSdIcP

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:13 p.m.    

Firtash was close to Yushchenko also. In fact Yushchenko was on his payroll no doubts. he who pays teh piper calls the tune

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Anonymous Sept. 2, 2011, 5:16 p.m.    

First things first. Mr. Onyshkiv, the US do NOT have an ambassador to Kyiv. The US ambassador is to UKRAINE. Please make the corrections.

Thank you.

Now, Arnaud, right on! Very good observations. This past summer I was in Xapkib and met with friends there. It was sad and comical too that they would celebrate Xapkib bocoming officially 100% corrupt. There was a sense of sadness and embarassment. But, as they described to me, people &quot;need&quot; those (counterfeit) electronic gadgets and they are cheap and affordable. As we say here, oligarchs have the populace grabbed by the short ones.

Sad indeed. Such a beautiful people and country. I only hope that a NEW generation will rise and jail all these rapists(oligarchs) and create a country with the rule of law.

As an aside, one of those friends I visited died suddenly after I left of a preventable disease. His problem? He was not a rich man. A man who dedicated his life for the welfare of Ukraine's children and he was not Ukrainian.

As he would say TIU (This is Ukraine).

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:39 p.m.    

The next generation will bring about change BUt they need the gound work done now. First steop is for urkaine to embarce conastitional change and a full aprliamnatry system of governmnet, get the foundations right and the rest will follow. Take a look at Estonia and Latvia Both successful Parliamentary governments

PACE and the Venice commission has recommend more or less the same. Ukraine would be better off under a Parliamentary system then a Presidential system

Ukraine must take collective responsibility for its own governance.

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:11 p.m.    

Well we knew it was not a democracy..

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:42 p.m.    

Thank you Julian Assange. Your a true world hero and advocate for democracy and free speech. Without you this information would not be known. -- To thin k that the US wants to silence Wikileaks.

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:49 p.m.    

Selling off state assets is always ticket for Ukraine as the general population do not have collectively enough money to invest. This leaves Ukraine for sale to the highest well connected predator. Either the oligarchs or international investors (including Russia) win. Ukraine loses its sovereignty.

Nest solution remove power from the President and give power back to the people via a parliamentary system of government

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:50 p.m.    

Correction: Selling off state assets is always tricky for Ukraine, as the general population do not have collectively enough money to invest

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 1:56 p.m.    

Many of the oligrachs got rich by using local mumcipality money to bank role their investments at cheap rates and good deals. Money tghat should have been allocated toward improving infrastucture and social needs. In some cses the money was paid back miunus the profits. In many cases companies were forced to fail so they could be bought cheap by those with connections and then the profits started to flow soon after.

Some players that were making a success were forced to sell or even had their assetts forecably removed. Be it a successful chocolate factory or metal mining company.

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 10:40 p.m.    

&quot;what can we do? we re simple citizens&quot;

In Estonia's &quot;Singing Revolution,&quot; Estonians stood up to Russian tanks - without any weapons - and turned them away. Estonians stood up for their freedom, for their dignity, for Estonia.

In Ukraine, the enemy is worse - it's not Russian tanks, it's the people in government and the oligarchs.

Literally, Ukraine's government/oligarch kleptocracy is the enemy of the people.

Estonia today is a very pleasant, very modern, very progressive country.

If Estonians could turn away Russian tanks without weapons, why can't Ukrainians finally turn away a decrepit governmental system and the people in and out of government who infest it?

As far as &quot;only the strong survive&quot; - what is strong about a system that does not work, that makes slaves out of people?

Democracies like Canada, the US, England, Germany, France, Estonia, Latvia, Poland, are strong - and prosperous - because their people are not slaves, their rights are respected and enforced.

The Spartans and Trojans were strong because every citizen had rights, and because every citizen had freedom - and every citizen was expected to stand up for that freedom.

In contrast, the sovok mafia mentality is &quot;I am your master, give me your money, I will exploit you.&quot; It's the old Russian idea of &quot;kormlenie&quot; - exploitation.

If I were going into battle, who would I want to be with me - Spartans, Trojans, Estonians - or sovok mafiosi who call themselves &quot;Ukrainians&quot;?

I think the answer is obvious.

&quot;Only the strong survive&quot;?

Which country is stronger - England or Ukraine?

&quot;Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves

Britain never never never will be slaves&quot;

How can a country that does not have a system of jurisprudence, that is based almost totally on corruption, that does not respect or enforce citizens' rights and basic human rights, that makes slaves out of its citizens for the benefit of Firtash and Boyko and Yanukonvikt and Akhmetov and Kolomoisky and Pinchuk and Kuchma, be strong?

It's impossible.

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Anonymous Sept. 3, 2011, 11:48 p.m.    

&quot;i waited 8 hours looking at luxury cars passing the check in two minutes. I thought they would congratulate me for doing so, but quite surprisingly they laughed and said that yes, i had acted well, but that they would never have waited 8 hours and would have definitly payed to go faster. When i countered that it s bad as it s unfair for poor people, that such behavior at hospital for example are threatening poors' lives, they answered that life was tough and only the strong survive.&quot;

This type of mentality is truly and shockingly bizarre - it shows complete lack of any thought or analysis.

1) Why should government employees be allowed to deliberately ABUSE their government positions for personal profit?

2) Why should government employees be allowed to deliberately ABUSE Ukrainian citizens for personal profit?

There is nothing &quot;strong&quot; about a country where government employees are permitted to ABUSE their government positions and citizens for personal profit.

Example - the sovok union had tons of abuse of government power.

The whole economic system fell apart to the point of turning into a bartering system, and people turned to an &quot;underground&quot; economy - &quot;in the shadows.&quot; With lots of corruption.

The sovok system fell apart.

People who espouse the mentality that justifies corruption are ignoring that example.

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Anonymous Sept. 5, 2011, 10:08 a.m.    

Sad, just very sad!

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