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The Lviv pogrom of 1941

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Sept. 23, 2010, 9:15 a.m. | Op-ed — by John-Paul Himka

There are two things I can agree with in Askold S. Lozynskyj’s latest philippic against me in the Kyiv Post ("History should be written by competent and objective scholars"). The first is his title: “History should be written by objective and competent scholars.” Absolutely. The second is that I erred in writing that Taras Bulba-Borovets was the founder of the Organization for Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) instead of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). I meant to write the latter, but accidentally wrote the former. Mea culpa. The importance of leaving this work to professionally trained historians is brought home by Lozynskyj’s confusion of the person of Mykhailo Kolodzinsky with the UPA division named after him, which was part of Army North.

The book of reports from that unit includes explicit accounts of the murder of Jewish survivors in the forests.

There is not room to respond to all the points in Lozynsky’s syllabus errorum, so I will just limit myself to the evidence about the Lviv pogrom of 1941.

Although in April 1941 the Bandera faction of OUN had repudiated pogroms, it was obliged to revise its stand when Reinhard Heydrich explicitly called for such “self-cleansing actions” on June 17.

At that time, OUN was coordinating its military activities with the Germans. On June 25, Yaroslav Stetsko wrote to Stepan Bandera that OUN had “formed a militia to remove the Jews” (usuvaty zhydiv). A week later, on July 1, the pogrom took place.

The head of the OUN underground, Ivan Klymiv, issued leaflets that were affixed to walls in Lviv on July 1. One of them said that revolutionary tribunals would punish enemies of the Ukrainian movement, applying “family and national responsibility for crimes against the Ukrainian State and Ukrainian Army.” Another said: “Nation! Know! Moscow, Poland, Hungarians, Jews are your enemies. Destroy them.”

At this time, OUN was setting up its own Ukrainian state, heralded as a ”Ukraine for Ukrainians.”

The head of the OUN underground, Ivan Klymiv, issued leaflets that were affixed to walls in Lviv on July 1. One of them said that revolutionary tribunals would punish enemies of the Ukrainian movement, applying “family and national responsibility for crimes against the Ukrainian State and Ukrainian Army.” Another said: “Nation! Know! Moscow, Poland, Hungarians, Jews are your enemies. Destroy them.”

Eyewitness testimony identifying the OUN militia as arresting Jews for pogrom activities includes Jewish survivor accounts recorded by the Jewish Historical Commission in Poland right after the war as well as videotaped interviews collected all over the world by the Shoah Foundation in 1994-2002.

In addition to testimony in these two large collections, other Jewish memoirs and testimonies, written or recorded in different times, places, and circumstances, confirm that Ukrainian militiamen were playing the leading role in the Lviv pogrom. There are also Polish witnesses to the active participation of the Ukrainian militia.

Films and photographs document Ukrainian militiamen on the scene of and taking part in the pogrom. A film of the exhumation of NKVD victims at Brygidki prison shows a Ukrainian militiaman, identifiable by his armband, beating one of the Jews pressed into the “prison action.” A film screened at the Nuremberg trial shows a militiaman in uniform holding a half-clad woman by the hair and beating her with her baton. The film, focussing on the events at Zamarstyniv St. prison, has largely deteriorated over the intervening decades, but stills were salvaged. Another photo shows a uniformed militiaman with his armband on his left upper arm taking part in the arrest of Jews on a Lviv street.

In the days following the pogrom, the Germans organized large-scale executions of Jews in which thousands were shot. Again, testimonies of those who were lucky enough to survive this action identified “Ukrainians” and sometimes specifically Ukrainian militiamen as the ones who rounded them up. Moreover, German documentation shows that the Ukrainian militia in Lviv was subordinated to the SS on 2 July when the executions began.

In addition to these documentary proofs, there are many arguments that can be made contextually. For example, the Germans always worked through local organizations in planning “spontaneous” anti-Jewish violence. This we know from Tomasz Szarota’s comparative study of pogroms and other antisemitic excesses in Warsaw, Paris, Antwerp, Amsterdam, and Kaunas. If not OUN, who was the Germans’ partner in the Lviv pogrom? We have German documentation that the OUN militia was the organizer of the pogrom in nearby Zolochiv.

In short, OUN’s role in the anti-Jewish pogrom that took place in Lviv on July 1, 1941, cannot be questioned by an objective and competent scholar, but I am quite sure that Lozynskyj will stick to his own view of this matter.

John-Paul Himka is the author of “Ukrainians, Jews and the Holocaust: Divergent Memories” (Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2009).

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Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 11:18 a.m.

It is always a shameful aspect of the pogroms and 'final solution' that there appeared never to be a shortage of volunteers. One of the units deployed during the Warsaw uprising was from the Trawniky camp and consisted of Ukrainian guards ... and this is by no means isolated. In principal, the majority of personnel involved in guard duties, death squads and in liquidating unarmed civilians are not worthy of a nationality. A quick study of the many SS volunteer units indicates the largest coming from Holland and the biggest single unit defending the Berlin Citadel in 1945 was French/Flemish.

In particular, those countries invaded and occupied in the early stages of the war invariably produced a larger number of volunteer units due to the many impressionable youth that would have been more easily induced by propoganda and the allure of a better way of life. No doubt an act that, in many cases, was later regretted. However, it must also be remembered that anti-semetism existed for centuries, Simon Wiesenthal walked with a limp due to being slashed in the leg as a 12 year old by one of Simon Petlayura's cavalrymen during a joint Polish/Ukrainian repression exercise. Such a mentality can take many years to change.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 6:29 p.m.

Has anybody ever seen a photograph of this saber-slash? Doesn't everybody know that Simon Wiesenthal was a pathological liar? The image of a Ukrainian cavalryman slashing at 12-year-old Simon is, as the Jews would say, a blood libel.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 9:41 p.m.

In spite of all that has been written about him, what Wiesenthal did during the war years under German occupation is still not clear. He has given disturbingly conflicting stories in three separate accounts of his wartime activities. The first was given under oath during a two day interrogation session in May 1948 conducted by an official of the U.S. Nuremberg war crimes commission. The second is a summary of his life provided by Wiesenthal as part of a January 1949 "Application for Assistance" to the International Refugee Committee.[ And the third account is his autobiography, The Murderers Among Us, first published in 1967.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 4:06 p.m.

Himka, you should be ashamed of your "Paid for" history.

"Dr. John-Paul Himka says he is uncomfortable as a historian. He considers himself to be more of an anti-historian. The 2001-2002 Killam Annual Professorship recipient would like to change the way we look at our past. “I feel the history we use, is just ammunition for arguments.”

Intending to become a Greek Orthodox priest, Himka began his studies at St. Basil’s Seminary in Connecticut. Outside the seminary walls, however, the 1960s were in full swing. Himka left St. Basil’s, went to Woodstock and discovered “there was just no way I could continue in that line of work.” Instead he enrolled at university in his home state of Michigan.

Certain he wasn’t meant to be a priest, Himka didn’t immediately know what direction he wanted to take. The experimental mood of the decade had influenced programming at the University of Michigan: the school offered a degree in ‘cultural studies.’ “You could study whatever the heck you wanted and get a degree,” said Himka. "

Go back to Woodstock, thats more your speed.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 9:26 p.m.

The personal attacks on Dr. Himka indicate that his research has caused some discomfort? Why should it? He has documented the participation of specific Ukrainian nationalist fanatics in the Lviv pogrom. One can only imagine that those who attack him personally (as opposed to pointing out any actual flaws in his research) are themselves Ukrainian nationalist fanatics caught in some bizarre time warp.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 9:35 p.m.

Himka's "research" leaves much to be desired and is no less biased or full of holes than that of his critics. He should try documenting evidence for his allegations and not simply relying on hearsay...although he certainly does seem to have an inflated sense of self importance.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 7:49 p.m.

I am so exhausted by the very general critique of Himka's research that is circulating so freely on this message board. It should be abundantly clear that you are committing the same academic crimes, which you attribute to Himka's methods. In short, it seems that the apologists on this message board would rather not do the rigorous work of comparing Himka's historical production to his methodological framework, which would be required before issuing any condemnation of Himka's work, and, instead, simply pronounce reactionary judgment.

Please, be more careful, read Himka before you condemn his work and make violent ad hominem attacks about his personal history, and try to understand that he is not interested in condemning Ukrainians. He is a historian trying to work through a very troubling moment in the history of a complex war, a troubled nation, and fractious ideological interests.

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 2:47 a.m.

A reformed Woodstock hippy who attended a University which allowed him to study whatever he wanted for his degree. Now theres a qualified academic. I've read Himka, his diatribes sound like an echo of left wing liberal garbage. Himka would be more suited doing research for the Kremlin, sorry, seems he already is.

Anonymous Sept. 27, 2010, 2:19 p.m.

re. "reformed Woodstock hippy" comment:

I guess you can't see that you and those who sound like you on this board are an embarrassment to Ukraine. YOU are the reason nobody takes the Ukrainian narrative seriously.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 6:40 p.m.

You know what you can do....

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 11:53 p.m.

there is NO reason to personally attack him--That's stupid...but his conclusions based on his research ...Thats another matter altogether...study his sources, his methods for interviewing and his selective ways of presenting or hiding whatever ...photos?.. did you read his book: “Ukrainians, Jews and the Holocaust: Divergent Memories”??? Maybe it will answer all your concerns?

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 9:32 p.m.

His documentation leaves much to be desired and his analysis is not any less subjective or biased that is claimed of his critics...if he wants readers to take him more seriously is needs actual evidence, not hearsay....

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 8:40 a.m.

...But anything we've written about actual evidence should in no way be applied to the OUN's heroism or Russian Jewish Polish Romanian Hungarian German anti-Ukrainian conspiracies.

These should be taken very seriously... because in these cases your job is to HEAR what we SAY.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 3:45 p.m.

That should read: "anti-OUN" conspiracies. The two are not the same.

Anonymous Sept. 26, 2010, 11:09 p.m.

how are they different ?...since none of the enemies would even recognize any Ukrainian legitimacy to exist. Only Nations that have an elite get ANY respect or recognition.

Every Nation that exists and is recognized by others is represented by a much more ruthless elite than the OUN ever was!

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 11:59 p.m.

There is no 'discomfort' with Himka's research....because there is no specific verfiable research....it is all generalized hearsay. He must state his source very specifically...and that means page number.

Now that the world knows that he is an agent working against Ukraine interests....most take him with a hefty dose of salt except those that are also paid provocateurs and their hangers on.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 1:19 a.m.

Photographs, films, reams of eye witness testimony, and OUN documents explixitly calling for the destruction of Jews and other national minorities are not all just "generalized hearsay." How on the earth does the world know that Himka is an agent working against Ukrainian interests? That's a stupid charge. If your ravings are supposed to represent Ukrainian opinion, I would say you are working against Ukrainian interests, unless it's in the interest of Ukrainians to sound like utter fools.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 2:52 a.m.

So produce the photographs, films and all other evidence?

Just saying that it exists does not make it so.

If this is your defence of Himka....then you too are a provocateur.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 7:59 a.m.

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/lvovwelcome1.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/lvov1.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov2.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov3.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov4.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov8.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov12.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov14.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/73/73704.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/69/69737.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/03/03824.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/69/69736.jpg

Anonymous Sept. 26, 2010, 8:23 a.m.

All above worthless ...none are worse than scenes of surrendered German POW soldiers paraded down the streets of Paris and other "Allied" cities AFTER the war which the supposed "good" guys won.

None of these show any militia in Ukrainian uniforms. There is NO information of who took these photos and what they show in context ...the grieving distraught women can easily be Ukrainians grieving the loss of their loved ones murdered by Communist forces in Brigidki Prison or other holding areas...as has been fraudulently produced and purposely mislabeled in previous WWII books produced by "Life" and "Time" and even the "epic" audio-video sheer propaganda series "The World at War".

You have to do better than THIS! The old shock technique of showing photos of "flies laying maggots into the open eyes of dead humans" no longer numbs us into silence-those shock horror repeats have "desensitized" us so now a new era of "we can't be fooled any longer" or "shocked" and so we ask tough questions and demand PROOF from those who lie and hide behind atrocity photos fraudulently!

THERE WAS NO PETLURA POGROM IN LVIV !

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 4:43 a.m.

You've got more nerve than a tooth-ache. Your 'evidence photos' indicate zilch...nada. Where in any of them does it show that Ukrainian forces were doing the arresting or anything else. These photos are general wartime photos that show Ukrainians being arrested or hanged from balconies opr women behind barbed wire. The photos are uncaptioned. Somehow you're trying to pin 'atrocities' on Ukes.....who in the hell you trying to fool??

I'm not clear what your trying to prove with these pics.....but afaic...they are pics of ordinary Ukrainians.

Your so-called evidence is a joke.

You are nothing but a Kremlin provocateur!

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 8:17 a.m.

Since you've identified all those in these "general wartime photos" as "ordinary Ukrainians", what do you make of: http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov8.jpg?

Who are the "ordinary Ukrainians" on their hands and knees in front of the L'viv Opera house — and who are the "ordinary Ukrainians" standing around them?

What is the context of this scene?

Why are many of those "ordinary Ukrainians" who are standing — smiling and laughing — while the "ordinary Ukrainian" men, women and boys kneeling, bowing and all fours before them appear timid and uncertain?

And since this is in front of the opera house, near the large, public square on Svobody — 2 blocks away from the Brygidki prison in one direction, 2 blocks away from the town hall in the other — where is the militia, where are the members of ОУН to safeguard one group of "ordinary Ukrainians" from the other?

In fairness, perhaps, they were otherwise occupied:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1f/July1941BanderaUkrainemeeting.jpg

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 10:27 p.m.

You have jumped to all kinds of irrational conclusions by looking at photos that tell you nothing of significance.

Anyone can give any interpretation to those photos.

You have a specific agenda and you think those photos meet your needs.

Alas, those photos need a lot more context than what you are offering.

Yes...who are the 'ordinary ukrainians' standing by?

There is nothing indicated in the photo as to who they are....but you have jumped to ridiculous conclusions.

Those conclusions just don't wash!

Anonymous Sept. 27, 2010, 12:01 a.m.

What do you make of it Kryvonees? What is it showing? Who is portrayed? Please explain.

Anonymous Sept. 26, 2010, 11:58 p.m.

These pictures could be anywhere and don't prove anything...too generic and unverifiable

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 4:21 p.m.

Here's the part you left out:

His approach to the ‘facts of the past’ has helped the history department at Lviv University, Ukraine, gain international recognition. Since 1976, Himka has been visiting the Ukraine to conduct research. “The things I worked on were not exactly forbidden topics in the old Soviet Union but they were not handled in the way a Western scholar would handle them.” By working closely with academics and teaching courses in Lviv, and by bringing students to the University of Alberta, he has helped younger Ukrainian scholars see their own history in “a different light, in a better light.”

Himka feels his hard work has paid off, and he proudly says that: “history at Lviv University is very good. Their historians can appear at any international conference, which they couldn’t have done years ago without being second-class citizens.” He quickly adds that it wasn’t a one-man show. “I wasn’t the only person working on it. We have all been working.”

Full article: http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/historyandclassics/news.cfm?story=27346

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 2:44 a.m.

According to his own statements to the reporter... LOL

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 4:25 p.m.

Many Holocaust scholars attribute much of the killing to the Ukrainian nationalists. However the killers' actual political orientation and relation to the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists is still subject to debate.

An international commission was set up at The Hague in the Netherlands in 1958 to carry out independent investigations. The members were four former anti-Hitler activists, Norwegian lawyer Hans Cappelen, former Danish foreign minister and president of the Danish parliament Ole Bj&#248;rn Kraft, Dutch socialist Karel van Staal, Belgian law professor Flor Peeters, and Swiss jurist and member of parliament Kurt Scoch. Following its interrogation of a number of Ukrainian witnesses between November 1959 and March 1960, the commission concluded: "After four months of inquiries and the evaluation of 232 statements by witnesses from all circles involved, it can be established that the accusations against the Battalion Nachtigall and against the then Lieutenant and currently Federal Minister Oberl&#228;nder have no foundation in fact.[5]"

A valuable source of a detailed study of the recently released archival documents of this period are in de Zayas's book "The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945" University of Nebraska Press, Rockport, Maine, 2000 edition [6]. Sections regarding the investigation of the Lviv atrocities are available online[1].

Soviet accusations

In the fall of 1959 the Soviet press mounted a major press campaign against the then minister in the West German Adenauer cabinet, Theodor Oberl&#228;nder, who at the commencement of WWII was commander of the Nachtigall Battalion made up of a couple of hundred Ukrainian volunteers.[7] The Soviets accused him and the Ukrainian division of participating in the SS murders in Lviv. On 5 September 1959 the "Radianska Ukraina" newspaper wrote: "Eighteen years ago the fascists committed a horrendous crime in Lviv in the night of 29 - 30 June 1941. The Hitlerites arrested on the basis of prepared lists hundreds of Communists, Communist youth, and non-party members and murdered them in brutal fashion in the courtyard of the Samarstinov Prison."

These accusations were picked up by the Western press and eventually led to Oberl&#228;nder's resignation. The investigation by the district attorney's office in Bonn, however, cleared him.[8] However, the accusations against him and the Nachtigall Battalion keep resurfacing in Western sources, based on the fact that he was a former assistant to the infamous Gauleiter Erich Koch and also because of his then political alliances to far-right movements. A new investigation of Oberl&#228;nder was started in 1996.[

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 4:40 p.m.

In February 2008, the Ukrainian Security Services (SBU) archive representative Oleksander Ishchuk showed declassified documents, which provide an objective basis to state that OUN (the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) is not connected with any violent actions against the civil population of Lviv on or after July 4, 1941.

In February 2006 the Ukrainian Memorial Society published on its website transcriptions and photo reproductions of original secret documents from the KGB files which pertained to the activities of the Nachtigall Battalion and various accusations made against it. [http://memorial.kiev.ua/content/category/4/19/184/ View here]

According to O.Ishchuk, the declassified documents of SBU indicate that on July 4-7 of 1941, representatives of Gestapo, who arrived in Lviv, turned to the Ukrainian population enciting them to carry out an anti-Jewish pogrom. “The OUN leadership, having got to know about that, informed its members that it was a German provocation in order to compromise Ukrainians with massacres”, the document reads. [http://unian.net/eng/news/news-234844.html View here]

Television coverage from Ukrainian channel 5 of the release of the latest documents dealing with the Lviv civilian massacre can be viewed [http://video.bigmir.net/show/48564 here] .

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 7:43 p.m.

This wouldn't be the same Іщук, Олександр Степанович whose dissertation titled:

«Діяльність молодіжних структур ОУН як складова українського національно- визвольного руху у 1939-1955 рр.» was published in by the «Центр досліджень визвольного руху» — which sports the stylized ОУН logo for a crest?

... who authored the books:

«Життя та доля Михайла Дяченка – «Марка Боєслава»

«Життєвий шлях Галини Голояд – „Марти Гай”»

«Доля та спогади охоронця Романа Шухевича – Михайла Зайця – “Зенка”»

«Ідеологічно-виховна діяльність ОУН(б) серед молоді (1944-54 рр.)»?

...and participant in the roundtable discussion:

«Роль і місце Степана Бандери в українському національно-визвольному русі 20-50-х рр.. ХХ ст.»?

Lozynksyj's right. History should be written by objective and competent scholars.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 9:29 p.m.

...your point being? Historian are a fractious bunch...and Himka does himself no favours with his lazy "research'...if he was a history student he would not be getting high marks for the persuasiveness of his argument

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 2:18 a.m.

...especially since those marking him aren't particularly interested in history at all.

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 3:52 a.m.

How do you grade Himka's fairy-tales in a historical context?

Just ignore him and move on.

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 6:48 a.m.

And live happily ever after?

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 6:19 p.m.

From this avalanche of Himka twaddle, I pick out only one point to comment on. Ask yourself who did the filming spoken of? Answer--obviously--the Nazis. This was all Nazi propaganda footage whose motive was to show that it was not Germans alone who were hostile to Communists and Jews, it was the entire society which the Nazis "liberated"!

Typical Himka--to trust in the unreliable, and in this case to take propaganda footage as historical reality.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 6:23 p.m.

I should add that it was STAGED propaganda footage. The Nazis recruited street criminals, sometimes out of prisons, and told them what to do.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 4:11 p.m.

I'm to understand, evidently, that this isn't based on "hearsay" or speculation — and is backed by reams of documentary evidence, detailing what prisoners, convicted for what crimes, from which prisons — together with the orders they were given.

If it isn't, of course, then it's just a snowflake in another "avalanche of twaddle."

Either that, or we can agree that a double standard applied to the weight of testimony favouring one narrative over another is not useful.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 7:52 p.m.

Yippie! Let's all bash this critical thinker for challenging our nationalist mythology! Ukrainians, after all, can do no wrong! We're the victims here, am I right! Let's shut this guy up for not talking about a historical reality that is constructed with objective government documents that offer us transparent truths even though they are also subject to the same ideological interpolations of things like autobiography, film, and other "artsy" subjective crap. And who cares about the fact that all these sources point to Himka's overarching conclusion that one time in history individuals living in Ukraine brutally murdered a bunch of other individuals in Ukraine because they "didn't belong" there. That's not part of my feel good nationalist story! I say again, make this gadfly shut up!

But more importantly, what's Himka's agenda? I ask because we obviously don't have one. Of course, we are interested in competent and objective history written by us and for us-- and there doesn't seem to be anything odd about that scenario. Finally, we are very altruistic and Himka decided not to be a priest. We should pity this fallen Woodstock man.

Sarah Palin for President of the World.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 7:59 p.m.

Its too bad your hero Himka, probably still high from his Woodstock antics, decided to ignore those government documents which show his diatribe as pure bullshit. Selective history at its best!

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 8:17 p.m.

nah man, i am high with you! we are getting our party on with nationalism! i am on your side! we're not selective like he is, we just ignore the stuff that disturbs happy land! it makes us better than he is. high five!

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 8:36 p.m.

i've just had a quick Google of some of Himka's contributions and I have to say that I have some agreement with him one issue.

I'm not referring to this issue of the Lviv progrom but the number of deaths from the Holodomor. I've seen figures of 7 - 10 million but I've always been a bit uncomfortable with this as I understood that these figures relate to the effect on the demographics, not deaths from hunger/starvation. The actual deaths from starvation I thought was about 4 million and the figures for 'reduced population growth' which included these deaths as the 7 - 10 mill but these now seem to be accepted as deaths.

Himka has highlighted this. And I also agree with him and the post below that we need to ensure we dont make myths and untruths to be the 'history'.

At the risk of being vilified, if we have a dark side to our past we need to face up to it. I personally am open to both sides of the evidence of the Lviv pogrom and Volhyn massacre at the moment and may decide for certain when I've read more histories of it but I think this one will take a while to 'bottom out'.

As Ukrainians (for me, British citizen of Ukrainian parents) we can be proud of our culture and lets celebrate who we are but lets not be blind to what could be a culpable period in our history. But lets not beat ourselves for it.

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 10:56 p.m.

"Films and photographs document Ukrainian militiamen on the scene of and taking part in the pogrom."

Can you produce ONE authentic undoctored photo to back up ANY of your assertions? Can you refer us to where on U-tube OR anywhere else we can view your "Film evidence" and who/where filmed it, who edited and cropped it to only show what propagandists want it to show, where its been all these years when we know that the Holocaust lobby would force everyone to memorize every scene if they could-required in all schools to pass forward,etc.

Produce or shut up.

Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/news/opinion/op_ed/detail/83452/#ixzz10NsKmvQj

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 5:43 p.m.

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/lvovwelcome1.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/lvov1.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov2.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov3.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov4.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov8.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov12.jpg

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/pic/biglvov14.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/73/73704.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/69/69737.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/03/03824.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/69/69736.jpg

By the way: the «Вожд» in the «Слава Україні! Слава Вожду!» banner in the first picture isn't Hitler.

Anonymous Sept. 26, 2010, 7:07 a.m.

All above worthless ...none are worse than scenes of surrendered German POW soldiers paraded down the streets of Paris and other "Allied" cities AFTER the war which the supposed "good" guys won.

You have to do better than THIS! The old shock technique photos of flies laying maggots into the open dead eyes of dead humans no longer numbs us into silence but it is a now a new era of "we can't be fooled any longer" and will ask tough questions and demand proof from those who lie and hide behind atrocity photos fraudulently!

Anonymous Sept. 23, 2010, 11:13 p.m.

Just for a change, how about we start looking at the role Jews played against Ukrainians in the Soviet Union. Hmmm? Apart from the fact that Jews in the Soviet Union were firmly against Ukrainian independence or any acknowledgement of Ukrainian being a distinct language and not a dialect, the KGB was predominantly composed of Jews who played a vicious part in the war making sure that no soldier dared retreat or risked being shot. Two good books, not written by Ukrainians, but by western journalists documented this. And to take only one family, my husband's family was almost wiped out by the KGB and only the nuclear family managed to escape with their lives. My husband, at age 16, was a promising violin progidy who was taken to the KGB one day and found a neighbor's son, one Itzhak Marcus, who had joined the KGB as soon as the Russians entered the town. My husband was asked to spy on his family and clssmates and was promised great riches in his career. He refused, was kicked, beaten, his fingers broken, and his Amati violin confiscated. A Ukrainian guard helped him escape to his family who smuggled him out of the town that night. But we don't talk about such matters, do we. We are too busy accusing Ukrainians of killing Jews and no one looks at the other side. Even Stalin's Jewish brother-in-law the infamous Lazar Kaganovich who murdered 7 - 10 million Ukrainians during the Holodomor. A book written by Kaganovich's American nephew, Kahan, was entitled: "The Wolf of the Kremlin, The Soviet Union's Architect of Fear" says that Stalin deliberately put Lazar in charge of the Holodomor because, as a Jew, he hated Ukrainians. So, let us be fair and study this other side shall we? Because history is repeating itself today in Palestine where Zionist Jews are perpetrating more of the same, vut now against Palestinians.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 1:39 a.m.

I assume you have documentary evidence of a Jewish national movement in Ukraine that called for the destruction of the Ukrainian nation. Please share it.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 2:43 a.m.

And where exactly is " jewish national movement in Ukraine" mentioned in the above piece?

Stop fabricating!!

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 8:26 a.m.

Good point, to which I wish to add one small qualification. I have the "Wolf of the Kremlin Book", and find not a single sentence in it worth quoting. Of course not, it is written by his nephew who finds nothing incriminating to say about his uncle.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 3:47 p.m.

Who are you to destroy the time honoured diaspora tradition of judging a book by its cover?

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 8:27 a.m.

Saskatoon:Heritage Press

John Paul Himka, Ukrainians, Jews and the Holocaust: Divergent Memories. Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2009.

A Mohyla Lecture Publication

Homeland Series No.5.

Paper ISBN 978-0-88880-554-6 62 pages illustrations

$19.95 + GST and SHP.

A personal reflection, Professor John Paul Himka (Department of History, University of Alberta) explores in this essay the vagaries of memory and the discrepancy in Jewish and Ukrainian accounts of the participation of Ukrainians in the Holocaust.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 8:30 a.m.

at only 62 pages ...doesn't seem like there will be much detailed analysis of real documents or photos. The "illustrations" might be interesting but are they worth the $20 + price tag of this "heavy" work?

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 3:32 p.m.

It's the transcript of a lecture — not an exhaustive study. Others in the series published by Heritage Press are:

Serhii Plokhy, Ukraine's Quest for Europe: Borders, Cultures, Identities.Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2007.

48 pages

Zenon E. Kohut, History as a Battleground: Ukrainian-Russian Relations and Historical Consciousness in Contemporary Ukraine. Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2001.

63 pages

Frank E. Sysyn, Mykhailo Hrushevsky: Historian and National Awakener. Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2001.

64 pages

Myroslaw Tataryn, Christian Churches in the New Ukraine. Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2001.

48 pages

Janice Kulyk-Keefer. Dark Ghost in the Corner: Imagining Ukrainian-Canadian Identity. Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2005.

52 pages

Myrna Kostash. All of Baba's Great Grandchildren: Ethnic Identity in the Next Canada. Saskatoon: Heritage Press, 2000.

45 pages

"Launched in 1994, the Mohyla Lectures is a major academic event in Ukrainian studies at the University of Saskatchewan. This series is devoted to a discussion of Ukrainian heritage and contemporary affairs."

The lectures are given at St. Thomas More College, at the University of Saskatchewan. They usually begin at 7:00pm — which helps explain why they are necessarily short.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 7:36 p.m.

"A personal reflection" That says it all.........

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 7:43 p.m.

Its obvious Himka did too much acid at Woodstock.

Anonymous Sept. 24, 2010, 9:06 p.m.

Perhaps. But it's slightly more obvious what the UPA division named after Kolodzinsky did to whom in the woods of Volyn'.

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 2:41 a.m.

According to who? You and your Mongoloid relatives in the Kremlin? LOL

Anonymous Sept. 25, 2010, 6:47 a.m.

Oddly — since the reports were written by Ukrainians about their own actions, in an outfit notoriously riddled with Soviet agents —

YES.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 5:20 a.m.

One thing is certain... Bulba Borovets and his "outfit" were riddled with Soviet agents... with whom he signed a non-agression pact. In fact his wife was probably a Soviet agent, considering she chose to marry one of them after dumping her collaborator husband Maksym!

Anonymous Sept. 28, 2010, 6:05 a.m.

The 'Vienna Arbitrary Award' of Czech and Romanian Carpathian territories to Hungary in 1938-39 led to many Hungarian attempts to annexe parts of Romania and Ukraine militarily at the behest of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy as an inducement to Hungary to fully join the Axis. Carpatho-Ukraine (Czech or not) was crawling with Hungarian troops at this time.

The Hungarian "Jews" in the forests of Volyn were not Jewish refugees! Why would Hungarian Jewish refugees go there? Hungarian Jewry were not stupid... they would not jump from a lukewarm frying pan straight into a roaring fire you idiot Krivonic!!!

They were Hungarian Military, who had become seperated from their military unit who were busy trying to annexe Carpatho-Ukraine courtesy of Hitler and Mussolini, even Soviet investigative reports acknowledge this.

Why should'nt OUN (B) defend Ukrainian Territory against Hungarian and Axis occupation???

The Allies sure didn't disapprove... as Hitler and Stalin were still best buddies.

Anonymous Sept. 28, 2010, 5:29 p.m.

An "idiot" may be distinguished by his ability to confuse Carpatho-Ukraine with Volyn, 1939 with 1943, and Bardossy/Hortha's Hungarian army with Golda Meir's IDF.

Your scenario requires a Hungarian Jewish military unit to:

- cross the Hungarian-Czech border in March, 1939,

- fail to find the road to Khust,

- cross the Czech-Polish border,

- drive, march, sneak past every occupied point, including L'viv,

- wind up 500 km away from where they started in the forests of Volyn',

- dodge incoming Soviet occupation forces 6 months later (in September 1939),

- survive the German invasion and Soviet retreat of 1941,

- live for two more years,

- encounter the UPA Kolodzinsky division in 1943,

- die.

I think "even Soviet investigative reports" would find all but the last two points of your script somewhat problematic.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 5:06 a.m.

Pray tell Kruvonic... seriously do enlighten us.

How did a group of 10 (or 12) hapless Hungarian Jewish civilians make their way from Budapest to a remote Volyn forest in 1943?

Did they have better maps or a private helicopter?

I agree with Kharkivyan... you are an idiot and a fraudster!

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 9:54 a.m.

Hello. I see there is now another 'Roman posting'. (I know, it's a crap pun. All to do with Hadrian's wall and those sort of jokes).

Just so that others aren't confused by which Roman is which, I'll henceforth be 'Roman GB' to distinguish us as I was born in Britain.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 12:21 p.m.

G'day...

I am the Roman above, and am born in Australia.

Hope I haven't cramped your style - and happy to identify with the OZ suffix.

I like your posts, and so hope I haven't inconvenienced you.

Don't know about you, but that Kruvonic and the LES guy really amuse me.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 2:15 p.m.

And a good day to you too.

Don't worry about cramping my style. It's good to have others posting as it livens up the debate.

Yes, Krivonc and LES do post some 'interesting' threads along with Mr heh heh.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 4:27 a.m.

Yes, an idiot persists in peddling lies against all credible evidence. A fraudster manufactures such 'evidence'.

Soviet military reports specifically address these 10 Hungarian soldiers in the Volyn forest... they concluded that they were indeed originally part of a Carpato-Ukraine annexation force, and further, that they became seperated from their command during this period. This was common for all military formations during the era.

For your edification, similar groups of Hungarian troops were encountered after 1939, up to the end of the war, in many regions of Ukraine... including the outskirts of Kyiv. This is well documented by not only OUN (B) but also by the Red Army.

Some were killed in fighting, some were made prisoners of war by the Soviets.

That Hungarian/ Axis military troops did not remain within the Czech borders of Carpato-Ukraine during these years is a no brainer. They participated with the Germans in Barbarossa and all of the subsequent military movements which occurred.

If OUN (B) formations and operatives could survive in hiding until the 1950's - why shouldn't Hungarians survive for 2 years or more?

The OUN (B) liquidated the Hungarian soldiers as part of their resistance to Axis invasion of Ukraine... If the Red army had encountered them - and they did encounter many Hungarian military units, they would have liquidated them for invading the Soviet Union.

Read the evidence Krivonic, before you accuse OUN (B) of crimes against humanity... but if you are so intent on defaming Bandera, you will have to do better than this.

And drop the Bulba Borovets fiction... his memoirs are a tissue of demonstrable lies, and his role in Ukraine in those years was shameful to say the least. He didn't fight the Germans or the Axis - didn't fight the Soviets - so what was his 300 strong force doing after his Bulbovtsi abandoned him to join the OUN (B) - UPA???

He spent his time attacking Bandera and OUN (B), and collaborating actively with the Nazis and the Soviets. That much is clear from credible historical sources.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 2:22 p.m.

May I add that not only were there Hungarian troops also fighting alongside the Germans, there were also Italian, Spanish, Romanian & Finnish units along various sections of the front.

For instance during the Soviet counterattack to encircle Stalingrad, the Red Army targetted Romanian units who held the 'quieter' part of the front as they were seen as being weaker element of the German defences.

It's quite plausible that there would be Axis Allied soldiers straggling along cut off from the parent detachments.

My parents even remember seeing Italian soldiers in their villages in Volhyn and Lemkyvschina.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 2:47 p.m.

Yes Roman GB.

But not only plausible - it's documented in many contemporary reports from all sides of the conflict... which in terms of historical research credibility is pure gold.

Krivonic may yet wish to explain the speculative alternative scenario he posits... that these were civilian Hungarian Jews.

How on earth did such people get to a forest in Volyn from their homes in Budapest? It's just ridiculous speculation, with NO corroborative evidence whatsoever.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 8:08 p.m.

Quite right and we'll see what Krivonic comes up with.

From what I recollect although Hungary was an ally of Germany and there were anti semitic laws and feelings in Hungary, Hungarian Jews were sheltered from the excesses of the Holocaust and were not sent to the camps until German troops rolled into Hungary I think later in the war in 1944.

It's probable/possible (I'm only speculating as I haven't read of any instances and I could be wrong) that until sometime in 1944 Jews would have seen Hungary as a haven in comparison to other adjacent countries, particularly Poland and Ukraine where the Germans were in control.

So yes, why would any Hungarian Jews would want to end up in Volhyn I'm not sure.

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 8:10 p.m.

Apologies, forgot to add the GB

Anonymous Sept. 29, 2010, 9:27 p.m.

Yes, it's quite plausible that Axis soldiers would be lost and straggling in a shifting front, ca. 1943.

What's implausible is that these Hungarian Jews could be "soldiers" — because Bardossy's legislation 1938, 1939, 1941 (the first, second and third Jewish Laws) and the activity of the Arrow Cross Party in the Hungarian military and defence apparatus restricted Jews to forced labour units (zsido munkaszolg&#225;latos). By April, 1941 — Jews COULD NOT carry weapons and COULD NOT hold any rank in the Hungarian army. Law XIV of July 31, 1942, recalled all military-related documents issued to Jews, and replaced them with identity cards prominently marked with the letters "Zs".

The "uniform" of forced labour units attached to the Second Hungarian Army engaged in the Soviet Union was civilian clothing — and a yellow armband. Under the policies of Karoly Bartha's Ministry of Defence, they were treated by the Hungarian army as POWs.

Kharkivyan's scenario — that these Jews were "Hungarian Military engaged in the annexation of Carpatho-Ukraine" — is little short of fantasy, not least because that operation was completed in just three days, March 15-18, 1939 — half a year before the beginning of the Second World War. But it's also a fantastic mischaracterization of the victims, driven by both a general ignorance of the Hungarian context and an ideological directive:

In order for ОУН-УПА to be untarnished heroes, it becomes necessary to tar every man, woman and child they dispatched as an existential threat to Ukraine.

While everyone can agree that a soldier of a foreign power, with a gun at your head and his finger on the trigger is fair game; most would feel differently about executing 12 miserable slaves or 12 refugees from what were once thriving Hungarian Jewish communities in Ukraine: Mukachevo, Berehove, Uzhhorod, Khust, Vynohradovo, and Berehove.

Anonymous Sept. 30, 2010, 2:10 a.m.

Thats a fair point. I wasn't aware thee were Jewish labour battalions and having just googled it I note some were sent to the Ukrainian front.

But I must admit I lost the plot on this with all the different posts. Where is it actually established that those that were shot were Jewish or are we arguing over conflicting source accounts of what happened.

I'm not being argumentative, just wanting to find out how this fact is known.

That anyone was shot is regrettable, whether Jewish or Hungarian soldiers and I can see how this can be a crime if they were shot just because they were Jewish.

Brings to mind a documentary I heard a few years back. Italian partisans fighting the Germans had captured some prisoners. They had no facilities for keeping large numbers of prisoners. And because they were low on bullets they slit their throats instead. It's not a quick death as you die from blood loss. Was this a crime? Probably.

And there were instances of Soviet partisans shooting German prisoners and I also understand mutilating the corpses.

It's a hackneyed phrase but war can bring out the worst in people and the Eastern Front probably was the worst of it.

Anonymous Sept. 30, 2010, 7:08 a.m.

No Roman GB... Krivonic does not make a fair point here, or in ANY of his other defammatory allegations against OUN (B).

There are only two known references at all to this incident involving "Hungarian Jews"... and neither support his false allegations that they were:

1) Jewish civilian refugees from Hungary (which Krivonic has been forced to admit is absurd);

2) Indigenous civilian Hungarian Jewish refugees from Ukraine; or

3) Unarmed members of a forced Axis Hungarian Jewish Labour Battallion.

Krivonic is well known in these forums for making allegations of war crimes against Bandera and OUN (B), having them all discredited by facts - which he refuses to acknowledge or address - and then persists fraudulently by putting up more 'straw men' using implication or confusing obfuscation without relent.

The "Kholodzinsky UPA" zahin report contained within the Ukrainian State Archive refers only to "Hungarian Jews". It does not identify their purpose or origin.

The accompanying Soviet Red Army account - written by Litopys - says the following (from Lozhynskij):

..."As to the allegedly damning document itself, the 'Litopys' reprint provides a less inflammatory version: “Among other major actions of the Zahin in December [1943] - an attack on Soviet partisans in the v[illage] of Zolote, setting fire to a command of 'communists' in Veliuni December 8, destroying 10 'Hungarian Jews' near the v[illage] of Selec (they had removed themselves from some functional battalion).”

So here, we see the Soviet documentary sources making it very clear that the Hungarian Jews in question were members of an active and functioning battalion involved in the conflict - they were NOT civilians.

The Soviets must have found some basis for this with their bodies - uniforms, arms, id, orders etc... in order to determine they were indeed from a functioning battalion.

There is no evidence to suggest they were unarmed, ununiformed, or to suggest their alleigance (Soviet Partisans or Axis Invaders).

But to debunk the lies of Krivonic once more - let's assume they were errant members of a functioning battalion of Soviet Partisans - who were Hungarian Jews from Ukraine (Mukachevo, Berehove, Uzhorod, Khust, Vynohradovo, Berehove - or even Selec close to the Volyn forest where they were found.

The Soviet Partisans were armed and often uniformed, and under orders from the Red Army, they fought and killed UON (B) UPA soldiers, and vice versa.

This is not a war crime as alleged by Krivonic.

Now let's assume the only other possibility, for the benefit of debunking Krivonic and his false allegations against OUN (B).

Let's say they were members of an Axis military battalion operating in Ukraine, either originally part of a 'Vienna Award' annexation force, or a 'Barbarossa' invasion force, or both.

a) if they were armed and killed by UPA, this is not a war crime; and

b) if they were unarmed members of an Axis Labour Battalion, killing them is not a war crime either.

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were forced into the Red Army against their will, and on pain of death if they refused. Killing them was not considered a war crime either.

But the Hungarian Jewish "Labour Battallions" were NOT engaged in peaceful labour as Krivonic would have you believe.

It is well documented that they were engaged in erecting internments to house captured Ukrainians, erecting gallows and digging ditches for condemned Ukrainians, buring villages and towns, stealing food from the local Ukrainian population to feed the Axis soldiers - and from time to time were armed under direct supervision for executions or battle situations against both the Soviets and the UPA.

Willing or unwilling, they were invaders and combatants, and killing them could not be a war crime - the soviets did it, the UPA did it.

If you review carefully the various commentry provided by Krivonic in many threads you will see a common theme. He unflinchingly argues that OUN (B) and Stepan Bandera were systematically anti-semitic, committed war crimes routinely, and uses the most fraudulent, erroneous and discredited misinformation to do so.

See his offensive use of the Bulba Borovets memoir against Bandera... and see how he ignores the clear evidence presented here, that these memoirs are largely historical fiction.

Krivonic like his Russian masters is also hysterically anti-diaspora, and not a supporter of Ukrainian Independence.

Anonymous Sept. 30, 2010, 3:13 p.m.

Thank you also for your post.

I admit to not knowing too much about this so I did a quick Google on Hungarian Jewish labour battalions and if the Wiki entry is to be believed they had a miserable time of it. With the work being arduous and many being intentionally killed by their overseers.

If some of these then ended up being shot by the opposing sides then it is double unlucky and a further tragedy.

If they were involved in building detention centres, stealing food from locals etc., then I see them as being in a double bind as being coerced into doing it and also then being hated by those they were doing it to.

So I take it that yes Hungarian Jews were shot but, and I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, it's a question of the representation of the facts.

I Googled 'partisans', 'legality', 'war crimes' etc. In the short space of time I had I couldn't find anything defintive so I am not sure what international law or conventions say about these.

As to the moral issue. Well, I can see that it's 'wrong' to do it but there are logistic issues for guerillas and partisans in what to do with them. Let them go, shoot them, accept them into the group. It depends on who's who, were they are, balancing the issues of can you expend the resources guarding them, will it risk you if you do, or whether you just hate those you've captured and you've murder on the mind.

It's easy to be judgemental though all these years later whilst we chew on our snacks and watch 60" flat screen TVs (not that I've got one).

Again Googling partisan activities, the Eastern Front showed up as being a mess of conflicting groups, loyalties, expediencies, (ie Germans co-operating with one group of partisans to wipe out others). But what came through was how brutal it was and in this sort of situation, if you came out not being affected by the killing to the point of being brutal yourself or traumatised, then I guess you were lucky.

I'm tending to agree with you Kharkivyan but I do reserve judgement a bit on it not being a war crime to shoot unarmed Hungarian Jews since they were members of an enemy's labour battalion. In strict terms it could be (and again I haven't found a reference on what's permissable or legal for irregular units) but it was not unusual considering what happened in that theatre and perpetrated by most of the sides. So it seems to me that if OUN(B) were guilty then others were just as guilty as they.

Anonymous Sept. 30, 2010, 5:24 p.m.

I agree that reserving judgement about unarmed forced labour battlions, whether Hungarian, Jewish or not is reasonable.

However, there is absolutely NO evidence to indicate they were. However, Krivonic does not argue reasonably on this point.... he makes the most serious allegation of anti-semitic war crimes against OUN (B) - without any evidence... and a good deal of direct evidence against his allegations.

Armed combatants, or unarmed, its not an anti-semitic war crime.

Speculation, assumption and fabrication is NOT evidence or proof.

Krivonic doesn't get the difference... it serves his pre determined objective to defame Bandera.

Anonymous Sept. 30, 2010, 8:04 p.m.

I think we've thrashed this one enough.

It's been good discussing this and maybe we'll do so again on another subject.

Take care.

Anonymous Oct. 1, 2010, 4:57 a.m.

I don't agree Roman GB... the kruvonic allegations are so serious, they require serious scrutiny... If it weren't for the "thrashing" given to Krivo on these forums and this thread, his misinformation would stand unchallenged.

The thing I like about Kharkivyan's posts here, is that he (she) does not let Kruvo get away with anything... because for every psuedo 'fact' put up by him (her) Kharkivyan provides 10 to refute it...

I would agree with you if the subject being discussed was trivial. It's not. It's fundamental to Ukrainian national memory - and the accusations of Kruvonic are of the most serious kind.

Keep going Kharkivyan - shining your spotlight on the likes of Kruvonic is working... he doesn't like facts and is more comfortable with speculative fiction as you have proven!

Anonymous Oct. 1, 2010, 4:47 p.m.

I think it's great that posters scrutinise and point out false allegations and correct inaccurracies. And if Krivonic is wrong and has an agenda then it's good that Kharkivyan has him/she in their sights.

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