KyivPost

How should I treat Russians?

Print version
Feb. 4, 2009, 8:32 p.m. | Op-ed — by Yuriy Lukanov
Russian democracy ends where talks of Ukraine’s independence begin. Is this true? I caught myself thinking, after meeting some Russians at a resort in Egypt, that I transfer my negative attitude about their country leaders onto them. I kept feeling that I should tell them where to go, and do it in the most brutal way.

It wasn’t just because their high-ranking officials invented yet another gas war with Ukraine.

The matter is that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev last year called a Communist-induced famine in Ukraine that starved millions of peasants, a “so-called” famine. He doubted its existence. Considering the touching closeness of the power duo in Moscow, the head of their government holds the same opinion. Moreover, a fund close to the Kremlin suggested that historians should consider Josef Stalin as the most successful Soviet manager.

In the meantime, my great-grandmother Mariya Tytarenko had six kids when the famine of 1932-1933 started. She ended up with just two. My grandfather, Pavlo Lukanov, was shot in 1937 as an "enemy of the people" for a non-existent crime. His wife, my grandmother Olga Volkovska, was sent to a camp in Siberia for eight years as a "family member of a traitor of the motherland". There she lost her mind and lived the rest of her life in an asylum.

Both sides of my family felt all the attractions of the regime they hail these days in Moscow. And I cannot help worrying how I should treat Russians.

Of course, one can always say that the simple people have nothing to do with it -- it’s the crazy politicians who behave this way. But I remember a telltale episode from 1989 or 1990 in the northern Russian town of Syktyvkar, where I went on business.

On the eve of that trip, I finished reading three-volume memoirs called “The revival of the nation.” The book’s author, Volodymyr Vynnychenko, was an activist of the independent Ukrainian People’s Republic (UPR) that came into existence after the 1917 coup in Petrograd, the then-capital of the Russian empire. The UPR only existed for a short time before being destroyed by the Bolsheviks, and Ukraine was then forced to join the U.S.S.R. One of the points the author made was that Russia’s democracy ends when the issue of Ukraine’s independence is raised.

I had thought then that Vynnychenko, who was a literary writer as well as politician, perceived the reality too emotionally, and his description of reality was even more emotional. That’s why he should be taken with a grain of salt.

But then I realized it all made perfect sense. During my bus ride to the airport on the way back, I sat next to a person who looked like a typical Russian intellectual – a bespectacled good soul. We chatted for a while, and he asked me where I came from. When I said I was from Kyiv, he changed momentarily: his eyes became bigger than his glasses, his hair seemed to stick up, and he started screaming at the top of his voice: “We feed you, and you are so ungrateful you decided to separate! We’ll never let you do it!”

His indignation was caused by the moods prevailing in the Ukrainian society at that time to declare independence and quit the Soviet Union. His flaming anger went contrary to what the Russian newspapers were writing about freedom and democracy. I was watching him and thinking that it doesn’t dawn on this person that I, like the rest of Ukrainians, have rights and can use them.

In a recent article by Ukrainian writers Vitaly and Dmytro Kapranov, I read a real life story that explains a lot about today. One woman asked them “Why is it that you dislike the Russian language so much?” They were surprised and asked her why she thought so. “Because you write in Ukrainian,” she said.

The woman was not Russian, but had a post-Soviet mentality characteristic of many Russians. The very existence of something Ukrainian is perceived with hostility, as a challenge to their existence. That’s why measures to resurrect the Ukrainian language are perceived by the Kremlin as war against the Russian language. That’s why Russians consider a more objective portrayal of Ukrainian history to be nationalist-driven revisionism.

President Victor Yushchenko’s actions to condemn the Communist regime for the Holodomor, or death by famine, of 1932-1933 are perceived as a reproach to the Kremlin, even though the Ukrainian leader never once mentioned the Russian people.

There are even jokes going around the Internet: When a Russian loves Russia, he is considered a patriot. When a Ukrainian loves Ukraine, he is an incorrigible nationalist. If the Russian president talks to his American counterpart, he is developing a relationship. When the Ukrainian president does the same, they are plotting against Russia. If a Russian speaks the Russian language, he is just a Russian. When a Ukrainian speaks the Ukrainian language, then again he is a spiteful nationalist. And so it goes on.

It was a shock to realize that this state of affairs is accepted by the Russian artistic elite. The wonderful film director Nikita Mikhalkov recently made a flattering documentary about Vladimir Putin and declared that it was God that sent Putin to Russia.

This is the same director who made the brilliant 1994 movie “Burnt by the Sun” to show the tragedy of Russians destroyed by the Stalinist regime. I simply cannot grasp how the same person can be an outspoken critic of Stalinism and an apologist of someone who praises the Stalin regime.

About a year ago, I came across a book by Yelena Afanasieva, a Moscow political scientist, called “The state or revolution?” The author was trying to prove that Ukraine does nothing but dream to harm Russia’s state interests. She is pushing the idea that it’s necessary to send in the tanks to break down Ukraine.

Hypothetically, someone over here can also write the same nonsense about Russia, but they would be laughed at. In our neighboring state, the preface to the book was written by Sergei Markov, director of the Institute of Political Studies-turned-Duma deputy. It’s indicative of the moods of the Russian elite.

There are people who say it cannot really happen because the brotherly nation will not attack us. But last year’s events in Georgia proved that what seemed like rants and raves from a book can come true. So, the question is, how should I treat Russians then?

Yuriy Lukanov, a freelance journalist in Kyiv, is a Kyiv Post columnist.
The Kyiv Post is hosting comments to foster lively debate. Criticism is fine, but stick to the issues. Comments that include profanity or personal attacks will be removed from the site. If you think that a posted comment violates these standards, please flag it and alert us. We will take steps to block violators.
Anonymous Feb. 4, 2009, 9:59 p.m.    

What is Russia? Russia is the invention of the Moscovite state. What was the Moscovite state? The Moscovite state is the successor to Vladimir in the Kyivan Rus cultural and political entity. The rise of Moscow is intimately associated with the collaboration that the eastern part of Kyivan Rus gave to the Mongols. In effect the rise of Moscow is the result of being the agent for the Mongols in their oppression of Kyivan Rus and Moscow and the Russian political empire learned those lessons from the Mongols very well. Still no matter what anybody might say Vladimir was a part of the Kyivan Rus cultural and political system. But the inheritance from Kyivan Rus was perverted to be transformed into the despotic state that Moscow and then Russia became. When you see Russia you have to say Kyivan Rus + Mongol despotic rule=Moscow and the Russian state.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 4, 2009, 11:19 p.m.    

Ukraine back to Russia will be the only solution

A country named "Ukraine" will cause more and more problems to the continent.

The quicker back the better for all. Nobody ever has needed , needs and will need the Ukraine.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 3:27 a.m.    

First of all, I doubt that an actual German would say something so stupid, but who knows, maybe you're a German of Russian origin, or perhaps just an imbecile. Anyway, Ukraine isn't going anywhere. It has existed, exists, and will continue to exist. So too bad for you!... ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 9:50 p.m.    

Hee, hee, hee!... Wrong again... Here are the facts. Ukraine has existed, exists, and will continue to exist despite centuries of misguided delusions from kremlin dictators who wish it were not so. Now you can pull out you're poster of Putin with his shirt off and pleasure yourself with dreams of Russia's return as a "great power", but we both know that just an auto-erotic fantasy. That's all the satisfaction I need... ponimaesh?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 6:20 p.m.    

Your reponse is only emotional. I give you facts. The romantic concept of a great nation is what exactly what it is: romantic. That is, an irrealistic approach to one's ambition. It can be easily compared to (to express myself correctly): auto-satisfaction. This auto-satisfaction can only happen under the bedsheets as it is the expression of an irrealistic ambition. Auto-satisfiers dislike broad daylight, shows how ridiculous they are.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 3:42 a.m.    

Well, good luck. Ukraine existed a bit in the 8th century, the a few weeks in 1917... then received independence for free at the fall of the soviet union. How long this last chapter will last is unclear. The way it looks now, Ukraine 3 will not last very long. Not because of the bad russians etc etc, but because Ukrainians are very bad managers. To make matters worse, they still manage to put a layer of arrogance on top of this incompetence.

And the essence of the Ukrainian conscience, the cossacks, were only good micro managers. There may have been quite some stealing to put food on the plates aswell.

A country is more than a flag, a language and an arrogant population. Just those 3 elements will only give a time limited ethnical experience.

Look, to "have" a nation, one need to govern well, to be wise etc. Look at history, how many empires, countries, cities have existed and dissapeared.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 5:16 p.m.    

Ha, Ha, Ha,... There's nothing funnier than listening to a kremlin stooge accuse others of arrogance.... Oh, my god, stop,... your killing me!.... hoo, hoo, hoo!.... Really sticks in your craw doesn't it... being forced to sit helplessly as the fiction that passed for "Russian" history is exposed for the farce that it is. Can't wait for the FSB to publish those formerly "Classified" Soviet documents.... Too bad Ukrainians arent foolish sheep like "Great" Russians,.. oh so eager to have a murderous "manager" to free them from the burden of thinking for themselves.....

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 7:28 p.m.    

My friend, concentrate on being successful at running your country. This is the best proof of independence. The rest is infantile moaning.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 3:54 p.m.    

Lieber Freund, ich bin auch deutscher und lebe zufallsweise in ukraine. Hattest nicht genug von ueber 40 Jahre of DDR?

Denk daran und dass auch andere es satt haben koennen von Russen zuhause

Dear friend, i am german too and it happens that I live in ukraine now. Did you not have enough of 40 years of DDR? Think that someone else too can dislike to have the russians in his home

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 11:31 p.m.    

I view the three slavic former republics of Russia, Ukraine, and Belorus as three brothers, who used to live in the same household, but now have grown up. They are still brothers with a shared history, but just like human brothers, having differing ideas and goals for their future, now want to have their own respective households. The three countries can have relationships with each other, but should respect eachother's "adulthood".

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 4, 2009, 10:14 p.m.    

Thanks for this, Mr. Lukanov. That is a question that has troubled me as well. I think I understand the Russian mind a little better now.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 4, 2009, 10:35 p.m.    

That was a great article. I too feel that ordinary Russians become different when confronted by Ukrainians or issues about Ukraine. They cannot phantom the idea that Ukraine and Ukrainians are different and need their own space, rights and country.

Even in Canada, the recently appointed leader of the Liberal Party, the Oppostion, is a Russian, Ignatiev, whose forefathers came from landed gentry in Ukraine, has a hard time accepting Ukrainians as anything more than peasants. And this from a man who has dreams of becoming the Prime Minister of Canada.

I have met a lot of different people in my 15 years of teaching in Ukraine. I hope to see wisdom prevail and the Russians in Ukraine accept Ukrainian independence, Ukrainian as the official language, and help to create a Ukrainian state that all people living in Ukraine could identify with.

Yurij, keep up the good work.

Valya

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 3:19 a.m.    

Thanks for helping me understand.

Perhaps they did kill too many intellectuals?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 3:32 a.m.    

Mister Lukanov, you mention yourself the identity problem of modern Ukraine :"I caught myself thinking, after meeting some Russians at a resort in Egypt, that I transfer my negative attitude about their country leaders onto them. I kept feeling that I should tell them where to go, and do it in the most brutal way."

Your attitude is skin deep, an allergic reaction. Ukrainians will still be considered as primal peasants as long as they react in this primal way. You want to be so different? Please, no problem. Live your life. But keep in mind a subtle but important aspect: learn to INTELLECTUALIZE your wish to be different. Skin reactions are an animal behaviour that will lead you nowhere. You may diasgree on this but it is a fact, People smell those skin reactions, you cannot hide them.

And secondly, just BE YOURSELF. Not yourself because i am not the other. Look Belarus has it's language aswell, quite close to Ukrainian. How comes there are much less linguistic problems there?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 2:02 p.m.    

Have you ever been to Belarus. I don't think so. They only speak russian there and have put their own language to the side. Mike 2 Please get your fact together and drop your propoganda.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 6:13 p.m.    

Just quit watching Fox news for a second and watch BELSAT. National Belarus TV. Talkshow for example: the moderator speaks belarusian, some guests too and yes, most speak russian. This all happens smoothly and harmoniously. Films dubbed in Belarusian, no prob.

Get your act together, the truth that goes against the Great Orange Revolution is only the truth. You may not love this fact, sorry, but i cannot lie just to fit you narrow provincialist paranoiac nightmare.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 5:13 a.m.    

"Russian democracy ends where talks of Ukraine’s independence begin." A wise man.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 1:25 a.m.    

I'll tell you how I would treat a Russian? I would deport them all to Siberia. I would let them kill each other. The old line is still a good one... " a good Russian is a dead Russian."

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 7, 2009, 9:31 a.m.    

They still are people, only fooled by their leaders.

It is not their fault that they were born in the Russian society.

We may not think about it, but in reality society we live in is making ourselves who we are.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 5:17 a.m.    

In the 21st Century, I prefer: While Russian democracy has ended, Ukraine's has started.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 5:21 a.m.    

To answer your question Mr. Yuriy Lukanov: how should I treat Russians then? With respect.

How should a teacher treat a bully? With kindness and a strong hand.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 6:44 a.m.    

You can thank Yushinko and his neo-Nazi cabinet for Russian reaction to anything Ukrainian. I'm still amazed at some of the quotes I have heard from Ukrainian cabinet. What a bunch of morons, who don't know anything about running a country, nothing about diplomacy, nothing about anything. Pretty much like the people who commited Red revolution in 1917 and established Soviet Union. What Ukrainian people got to be worry about right now is not to put somebody in charge who will resemble Stalin or Saakashvilli.

Mr. Lukanov: Your loss of family and friends during Stalin years is not unique. You share this with any person residing in former SU, and will have a hard time finding Russians who's relatives or friends did not suffer under Stalin regime. So, please, when you say that Putin beleives that Stalin is a hero, back it up with some facts and may be, just may be, you may be taken seriously

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 7, 2009, 9:38 a.m.    

What a moron.

For whom is your love?

I believe you just got lost in the internet. Look for something ending with .ru

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 11:46 a.m.    

This article could give a rise to understand this problem only for people, who are absolutely far from any historical,political and social knowledge. Such a stories about "bad" Russians screaming for the whole bus is nothing but the provocation. Lots of Ukrainians living in the Western part of the country are positively surprised to travel to Russia and Eastern Ukraine. They read such primitive articles and "get the understanding", but often the truth is somewhere in between.

Dear editorial staff, please, be aware that some people reading your newspaper have higher education and feel being recognized as a stupid teenagers when you offer to read such infantile nationalistic articles.

Dear readers, please, find the books mentioned in the article and read them personally. Don't eat this fast-food article!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 5:05 a.m.    

when Ukranians are proud of their nation they are called "infantile nationalists"..

just like the joke in the article

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 7:05 p.m.    

Nationalists are being called infantile when they behave this way. Try adult behaving, it works.

Ok ok, the explanation: an adult understand better the consequences of his acts. A child will do something for direct satisfaction, whith no regard and knowledge of the consequences.

For example? In this article, the author talks about his skin rash when seeing russians on a beach. How do you think russians react when they read this? etc etc etc etc Guess some intellectual will reply to me that russians have been acting this way with them. Maybe, i don't know. This is EXACTLY the reason for not copying the behaviour, as i will only fly back in the face even more.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 3:35 p.m.    

Is this article really worth printing? As if Ukrainians were the only people to suffer under the Soviet Union? You may have a point that Russian democracy ends where talks of Ukraine’s independence begins, but Ukrainian democracy ends when its Russian speaking regions disagree with Kyiv. This sort of thinking will achieve nothing for people in Ukraine.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 5:09 a.m.    

of course by printing you mean posting on the internet.. besides this is posted in the opinion section pro-Ukranian opinions are not even worth posting on the Internet.

P.S.

KP - it would be nice to see the "Защитный код введен неверно" message in Ukranian or at least English

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 5:11 a.m.    

meant to say --> are you suggesting pro-Ukranian articles are not even worth posting?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 4:17 p.m.    

This article is exactly on point, except it doesn't go far enough. All talk stops - forget about democracy - at the rooshan border. One is not permitted to challenge maskva, in the mind of rooskies.

The Estonians "dared" to "insult" roosha/maskva by moving - not re-moving - a sovok era monument to a better location. maskva squealed like pigs.

rooskies simply can't get it through their heads that it is not the obligation of non-rashans to apologize for not being slaves to rasha.

And they simply can't, and won't, get it through their head that they are not superior to anyone.

The only thing rasha has done, at every opportunity for centuries, is to spread death and misery everywhere - and then try to paint it as paradise.

How do you treat a Russian? Like a human being.

How do you treat a rooskie sovok? The answer is obvious.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 7, 2009, 9:25 a.m.    

Good comment. +5

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 5:29 p.m.    

Excellent article. Treat each person as an individual, by at first giving them the benefit of any doubt. The truth, however, must be spoken about the present Russian government. It is very bad, perhaps even evil.

Ukraine- stay strong in your beliefs and true to the path that you have chosen! You are righteous in your hopes and dreams.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 6:08 p.m.    

Good article. Very informative.

By the way, alot of people that I have met (USA) don't know the finer points about Russian Ukraine history. They know the USSR felll apart and new states emerged; among them Ukraine. So, since the USSR no longer exists, but Ukraine does, with its unique language etc., then to the average American, in my opinion, Ukraine is a sovereign state. End of story.

So, keep pushing your claim, Ukraine already has the populace of the most powerful country in the history of the world recognizing its statehood claim so... That means quite a bit.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 6:27 p.m.    

Do people in the US know about the genocide of the indians? Seems they are not too eager to dig this historical crime.

USA can get a little break and mind it's own business for a while. This to know the finer points of Irak's history, and the finer points of the US agression and crimes commited there.

Maybe have a look at the crimes commited by the grand ally Israel on stolen land. Digging into this would allow you to understand why young boys decided to take their lives and fly into the twin towers. There are reasons to that.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 8:31 p.m.    

Mike2, where are you from?

Of course we in the US know about the genocide of the Indians. We also are aware of our role with other nations in slavery. We also know we make mistakes

But...as I read your comments, it doesn't appear you care about anything other than smearing the US, Israel and any other freedom loving countries, which says very little about your ability and intellect. You fit the role of a troll.

You must be a Russian supporter, who is blind to genocide by his country, Holodomar, Gulags, killing all opposition including journalists, making the biggest mass murderer in history (Stalin) a hero, etc., etc.

You want to compare apples to apples, there is no comparison to the brutality of Russia, current or past.

At least in the US we try to encourage our intellectuals instead of sending them to Siberia. Perhaps that is why Russia is still a 3rd world country?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 7:07 p.m.    

Ok, one by one...

"and any other freedom loving countries" How do you dare spoiling the word FREEDOM in this way? Israel is free for a TRIBE: the jews. A palestinian who got kicked out of his village and put in a refugee camp might dislike your concept of FREEDOM LOVING. Anycountry, any person on earth loves freedom, please do not put a copyright stamp on it. Ukrainians have been enjoying FREEDOM LOVING for 4 years now with the result you know (if you live in Ukraine).

"blind to genocide by his country, Holodomar, Gulags" Get rid of the hate and watch russian tv one evening.

"killing all opposition including journalists" Dunno where you got that from. Mostly anglo saxon press is as arogant as to condemn right away the russian government, as if everything that happens in russia comes from one man. Wake up. Look at where russia was in the 90's. It was a bloodbath. Not condemned because Yeltsin & co were giving the oil concessions a dump prices.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 7:24 p.m.    

"there is no comparison to the brutality of Russia, current or past" Well, this is a very subjective comment. Find any countryor tribe that occupies a land without atrocities commited in the past.

"(Stalin) a hero" There are idiots in any country, in russia aswell. Some see Stalin as the only guy who could lead the country effectively against the nazis. Again, there are idiots everywhere. Bush supporters are idiots aswell (unless they work for an irak contractor).

"Perhaps that is why Russia is still a 3rd world country?" You make me do this... you just expose you hate potential and unjustified arrogance. While the US was borrowing like hell, Russia was saving money. Now is the time to ask for the bill, and America, after having parties too much, has a bit of a headeache when seeing the bill. As soon as the dollar will go, the whole structure of the US will be finished. If i like it? Hell no, because there are lots of nice people in the US who do not deserve such a destiny.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 5:50 a.m.    

I know how we treated the Indians. We gave them small pox infested blankets to kill them so we could take their land. The difference is that today we recognize and admit that this was genocide. Americans are human beings. All human beings are capable of unspeakable evil. But that wasn't me who committed those crimes. The best thing that I can do to atone for those mistakes is work to protect human rights today. As for Iraq, I disagreed with the war there. I did what I could to end it by voting against the leadership that started the war, and enough of my countrymen agreed so we have new leadership. I do believe that the United States could have resolved this conflict sooner if it had the same reckless disregard for loss of civilian life that those boys had who flew the plane into the towers. By that standards, those boys were a lot closer to those early american murderers than I am.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 5:19 p.m.    

What do you think I mean?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 9:33 a.m.    

Thanks for the reply. I am sorry Bill, the indians got more than infexted blankets. The blankets story is a way to give an impression of a passive destruction. There were brutal killings aswell.

On the human rights issue, i fully agree with you. Helping others starts with introspection. Then you know that the help will be efficient and not flawed.

"I do believe that the United States could have resolved this conflict sooner if it had the same reckless disregard for loss of civilian life that those boys had who flew the plane into the towers" What do you mean by "resolving this conflict sooner", how?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 6:59 p.m.    

If i ask the question, it means that i don't know what you mean. I could guess, but i lack the powers of a medium.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 5, 2009, 8:17 p.m.    

Great comment.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 4:41 a.m.    

I don't think much about how to treat a Russian. I think a lot about how we should treat a Ukrainian.

As an American, it makes me sick that the USA has spent billions of dollars on fighting in Iraq when we could have been helping Ukraine for the price of a single bank bailout. The good that we could have done by investing that $200 billion a year for five years in Ukraine instead of Iraq. Unfortunately, our government says we must wait for a clear signal from the Ukrainian people as to the direction they wish to go.

My fellow Americans, I say we stand at the ready to help Ukraine as soon as that signal comes. We must not let her down again. Americans will not refuse a friend in need. The people of Ukraine put the old school in the words tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free. Why, I bet if you stuck a feather in their cap they would even tell you they look dandy.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 6:24 p.m.    

LOL, Wild Bill, you obviously don't know anything about how governments in that part of the world work. The more money you give them the more money they'll spend, via contracts they will allocate to their exclusive club. They would go through the stimulus package in 6 months and will be at your door asking for more.

Whatch whats going to happen in Georgia with $4B of Western support and then tell me if you are ready to give more. And by the way, US has nothing to give. Every year US government borrows heavily in order to run its own affairs, which is like robing Peter to pay Paul. US can't even control its own spending, how is it going to help Ukraine? Wake up.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 2:09 a.m.    

If the people will not hold their leaders accountable, then a country will fail under either system. However, in America, people meet in small groups to try and think of ways to help their communities. Some ideas work, some don't. Those that do get spread around to other groups. Eventually, the ideas work their way up to the leaders at the top. If the leaders ignore the will of the people, then they get voted out. The ideas to solve America's economic problems do not come from a small group of elites, but from all aspect of society. Whether we help the rich more or the poor more ebbs and flows like the tides. As for Americas faults, we have many. I can name more of them than you can. However, everyone here is free to participate in government and to advance in social status if they work hard. One can easily imagine a native American reaching the Presidency. That alone does not atone for the injustice they have suffered, but it shows the power of participating in government.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 2:52 a.m.    

I have to disagree. If USA is going to inject the money in to Ukrainian economy, Ukrainan people will not care one bit for how the money is going to be spend, as long as jobs are created. There will be no outrage or mass demonstrations, or any other kind of consiquences for mis-appropriation of those funds.

Therefore it will be US that would have to monitor the spending, and from the looks of it, US leadership is very easily deceived, unless they are in on the scam.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 6:08 a.m.    

BP CEO came in and lashed out at the workers? Friend, it is his job to lash out at the workers. Thats what the CEO does. He is the President of the company. You are supposed to listen to him. The very definition of corruption is for the government to oust the person chosen by the shareholders of the company, who are the owners.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 5:25 a.m.    

That is why the US government is saying to wait for a clear signal as to the direction of the country. The signal is not that the Ukrainian government says please give us money. It is a serious attempt by the government to reform. Look at Russia. It allowed direct foreign investment in oil industry, then forced BP out. Not a good long-term move, but that is just my opinion. It will be a long time before anyone else makes a similar commitment. The more Ukraine works to open government up to public view and works to protect the rights of all people within its borders, the more the US will respond with aid and private investment.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 6 a.m.    

No, BP wasnt' forced out. BP CEO came in and started to lash out at management of the company.

Stop being appologist for BP, they are a huge business and when they went in to business in Russia they had to take in to account cultural issues. Politics has nothing to do with it. Any of Exon Mobile or Shell guys are as tough as they get, and Russians are the same. If you are afraid of the wolfs don't go out to the forest.

My advise to you Mr.Bill, research issues before commenting on them. It is easy to see that your perspective of the issues comes from plain propoganda.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 6:03 a.m.    

In a free market society, you protest bad behavior by changing your vote or where you choose to spend your money. There is little need for the people to take to the streets in violent protest. Ironically, most riots here begin as celebrations that turn ugly because of alcohol. If I don't like a store, I don't shop there. If I dont like a TV show, I turn it off.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 6:58 p.m.    

"I say we stand at the ready to help Ukraine as soon as that signal comes" Eh, what kind of signals do you need? I think you are a fucking liar.

And please stop the FREE bullshit. People have been trought his lie before. Difference now: empty stomachs.

Please free the native indians who have been massacred so that you could build your ugly paper thin houses.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 5:36 a.m.    

If I had several million dollars, I dont but if I did, I would not give my adult children any of it directly. Free money eliminates the incentive to work. I would tell them that for every dollar they made, I would match them some amount. Maybe a dollar for a dollar. I would want them to go out and learn a skill so they could earn their own money, yet still live a comfortable life. My child would be free to choose a career for themselves and it would lessen the temptations that free money brings. They would have the pride of earning their own money, and I would know that they would never want for much. It is with this in mind that I suggest the US help Ukraine.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 9:23 a.m.    

Understood, interesting and wise. The subtitling was not very advertised during the orange revolution. Even grossly hidden. Attention must be paid to the failed expectations.

So even if promised, help1 never came. Help2 actually did not come either. When the oranges came to power, western teams packed their stuff for a well deserved break at home. And never came back. No after sales service.

"Unfortunately, our government says we must wait for a clear signal from the Ukrainian people as to the direction they wish to go" Wasn't the orange revolution a signal? Come on. The signal thing is a good excuse.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 5:20 a.m.    

To Mike2 : you said: "Ukraine existed a bit in the 8th century", now google "wiki kyiv rus", read the article. But since you most likely will not do that here is a quote from that article that you might find educational "Kyivan Rus

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 6:54 p.m.    

Thanks, i know this wiki. What do you want to prove? That Kyiv Rus invented the wheel, astronomy and philsosphy? It was a tribe getting a tribute for passing goods. Nothing wrong with this, however no need to idealize the achievments of the tribe.

As you mention this wiki: "Brutal killing of siblings and relatives was a very common way to obtain power." Sounds familiar?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 8:37 p.m.    

what do I want to prove? The truth of course... again I will repeat my self if you did not understand my previous post, you said "Ukraine existed a bit in the 8th century", meanwhile it is a known fact that Ukraine aka Kievan Rus existed from 8 - 12 centuries AD which directly contradicts your statement. Now since it is a fact that Kievan Rus existed from 8 - 12 century, that must mean that your statement is false.

Please also tell me where in my post I said that Kieven Rus invented the wheel or Astronomy or anything else for that matter?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 3 a.m.    

well they did introduce Christianity to eastern Europe... not exactly zero influence, beside they built quite a few monasteries and churches. Definitly not on the scale of Greeks or Romans, but still pretty impressive, especially the pecherska lavra which used to attarct lots of pilgrims and iat one point was considered a mecca of eastern orthodox faith.

I am Ukranian and I dont think of myself as arrogant. Besides that, Ukranians that left for Canada seem to be doing quite well and the central Canadian provinces wich have the highest population of Ukranian migrants are the richest ones. Canadian government actually makes a point of getting more Ukranian workers into the country. So clearly your issue is not with the people of Ukraine but the the government thats in place, which I agree with you knows nothing about managing a country.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 4:43 p.m.    

8-12 century is 400 years.. thats way longer then Soviet Union, not a little bit as far as I am concerned, especially considering the settelers from Kiev established Moscow and if you saw the map on wiki Moscow was just a province of Kievan Rus. Calling all Ukranians bad managers/arrogant is prejudice and racist and rather close minded, i hope i dont need to explain to you why. Instead answer me this, if you are infact from USA do you consider all black people slaves still? or maybe crimininals?

yes do look at history many great empires did wanish, but that doesnt take away from their influence on the world at the time

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 7:14 p.m.    

Ax come on, the worldwide cultural influence of the Kievan Rus at the time was close to zero. Would you compare them to the romans or greeks? Temples, philosophy etc? Architecture, classicism? NO. Neither Kiev Rus nor Rus. So what? No problem with that. Do you want me to lie and create a cultural bubble, to say that they changed the cultural map of the world? Do the Irish pretend that they dominated the world culture? If they would, well, people would laugh. They have a fantastic culture, which is as is.

You black stuff is completely out of context. I am writing about what the ukrainians think of themselves, and the consequences of the fantasms of some. Would amount of what the blacks think of themselves.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 11:43 p.m.    

There can be endless discussions about history. So for you exclusively:

Ukraine existed a bit in the 8-12th century, the a few weeks in 1917... then received independence for free at the fall of the soviet union. How long this last chapter will last is unclear. The way it looks now, Ukraine 3 will not last very long. Not because of the bad russians etc etc, but because Ukrainians are very bad managers. To make matters worse, they still manage to put a layer of arrogance on top of this incompetence.

And the essence of the Ukrainian conscience, the cossacks, were only good micro managers. There may have been quite some stealing to put food on the plates aswell.

A country is more than a flag, a language and an arrogant population. Just those 3 elements will only give a time limited ethnical experience.

Look, to "have" a nation, one needs to govern well, to be wise etc. Look at history, how many empires, countries, cities have existed and dissapeared.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 6:47 p.m.    

Simply be comfortable in the knowledge with what the US has contributed to the pages of history, McDonalds and Coca Cola!!! They also done well with 'fucking up' a perfectly good English language...like totally! Self indulgant over weight fucks!!!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 12:04 p.m.    

The philosophy of methodological individualism says that each of us should treat another person as an individual, on his and her merits and deeds. It leads to freedom, peace and prosperity.

Methodological collectivism packages people with labels of race or nationality or (whatever); and makes people "guilty" of events they had nothing to do with. It leads to irrational hatreds and war and oppression.

Solidarism or Co-operative Individualism says that each of us should relate to others as individuals, and endeavour to interact with them fo mutual benefit.

The choice should be obvious; but Orwell's "group-think" gets in the way.

Best Wishes,

Tony Hollick

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 6:26 p.m.    

Yes Tony, but it is way to complicated for some people here.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 4:57 p.m.    

It's not so much that it's complicated; but that various cognitive biases get in the way. See Wiki for "List of Cognitive Biases" (smiles)

I wouldn't mind betting that if we had an online poll, most people would understand it; and most people would agree with it.

My favourite philosopher, Karl Popper, says this:

"It is often said that we are clever -- perhaps too clever -- but we are also rather wicked; and that it is this combination of cleverness and wickedness which is the cause of most of our problems.

As against this, I would say that we are good -- often perhaps too good -- but we are also rather ignorant ; and that it is this combination of goodness and ignorance which is the cause of most of our problems.

This approach of mine has the great merit, that we know a lot more about remedying lack of knowledge and understanding than we know about curing wickedness."

Best wishes

Tony

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 1:13 a.m.    

Most participants here don't read too many philosophy books.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 4:33 a.m.    

Do on to others as you would have them do unto you,

Russia is not seeking to deny Ukraine its independence and right self detrmination. The comment above is another example of false misleading anti-Russian propaganda

The main person who is denying Ukraine the right of Self-determination is the enemy within namely Victor Yushchenko and his ultra nationalist associates. His "Its his way or no way" approach to democracy has undermined Ukraine's sovereignty and democratic development.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 2:59 p.m.    

It would be beneficial for both Russia and Ukraine if the Russians would just

accept the Ukrainian people's right to self determination and would just

work at developing good neighborly relations with Ukraine istead of trying to

undermine Ukrainian sovereignty at every opportunity and constantly trying to

meddle in Ukraine's internal affairs. At the end of the cold war the United States

recognized that the British and French had their right to keep their nuclear weapons,

while the Russians did everything they could to get Ukraine to give up theirs.

Such a brotherly nation, not.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 6:43 p.m.    

Guess you mean that to prevent Ukrainians from stealing is meddling into their affairs. Interesting.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 4:26 p.m.    

First, they were nuclear weapons that Kyiv could not deploy - but but Moscow still could.

Second, they were in the last few years of their service life.

Third, the United States did everything they could to make sure Ukraine gave up those nuclear weapons, too.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 11:17 p.m.    

The U.S provided security guarantees to Ukraine for doing so whether Russia likes to believe it or not and Ukraine believed it was entering into a spirit of new world peaceful cooperation.

Don't kid yourself that Ukraine could not of used them. The Kremlin debated whether to launch a first strike against Ukraine to prevent their separation from Moscow. Ukrainian military officials let Russia know that Kyiv's response would of been mutual.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 1:09 a.m.    

Yeah yeah. The republics separated naturally: Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Tadjikistan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, Kazakh, Kirgistanstan, Azerbaijan, Armenia.

With the consent of Moscow. You write BS

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 6, 2009, 8:18 p.m.    

Very good article!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 12:23 p.m.    

Ukrainians are not slaves of Moscow bandits ...

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 3:54 p.m.    

Treat Russians well, and cease obsessing about how Russians regard Ukrainians. The insistence that "we are free from Russia" is in every way undermined by how important it evidently is that Russians recognize that we are free. Don't waste energy on attitudes we cannot change, focus instead on creating things the rest of the world finds valuable. Write something in Ukrainian that excites the world and that the rest of the world wishes to read. Abandon essays that explain in convoluted detail precisely how Gogol would have preferred to write in Ukrainian if he really could; or how Shevchenko's poetry in any "objective analysis" outshines Shakespeare. The rest of the world thinks that Shevchenko kicks a football around a pitch. Ukrainians spend too much time arguing that the world ought to value them more, and not enough contributing the things that would see that it does.

The result is Solzhenitsyn -- who never knew his father -- and whose mother was Ukrainian.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 10:47 p.m.    

I sense a convolution in your commentary on how Ukraine should Identify itself to the world or 'behave', especially from a chauvinistic view point such as yours.

There is a Canadian saying, "to baffle with bullshit". You do it quite well!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 4:05 a.m.    

The phrase is "bullshit baffles brains." It assumes that you have brains to baffle.

You can't control the past, you control how you act in the present. Some of those who attacked Buzina couldn't quote half a stanza of Shevchenko. Time is being wasted looking backwards, when there is no time to waste.

We can't go slowly. By 2050, the population which stood at 52 million at independence is projected to drop to 33 million: a loss of 19 million people.

You have to give young people hope and something to look forward to if they are to bring children into this world. That means tangible examples of people writing NOW, composing NOW, sculpting NOW, painting NOW, designing NOW, inventing NOW, engineering NOW; managing successful businesses, producing products that surpass what other countries produce.

Independence based on an early 20th century national model never conceived of an imploding population. Every potential parent in Ukraine, of EVERY language and background COUNTS.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 11:57 p.m.    

Gaz. You pretend to be a moderate and you project an image that you 'care' about Ukraine.

What I sense is an underlying mockery from you and a thinly veiled contempt in many of your postings towards Ukrainian issues.You mix fact with fiction which can leave an uniformed reader with a confused view of the current situation. Your purpose is to corrupt and undermine any positive outlook Ukrainians have about themselves and to others who read these postings.

Ukrainians world wide have succeeded extremely well in the arts, business and sciences when not under a Russian boot and then,even in spite of it.

I don't know what your background is but you impress me as being one of those parakeets in Moscow's keep that Shevchenko would commonly refer to as Ukrainians who sold out for the benefit of Russian interests.

I can't speak for Solzhenitsyn's parentage but his credibility as a renowned writer fell out in international standing as a professed anti Semite and Russian ultra nationalist.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 10, 2009, 1:20 a.m.    

I'm not surprised by your "sense", Alberta, for what you most readily demonstrate is a lack of it.

If I combine "fact with fiction," at least my argument can still boast an element of fact. Your preference is to combine fairy tale with fantasy in national romance.

You fit the model of Ukrainians who, short of the concrete, fall back on paeans to the country's "rich, loamy soil." The Nile River Delta has rich, loamy soil too - but I can't think of anything particularly impressive to come out of Egypt since the Lighthouse of Alexandria - and that was built by Greeks.

You are so befuddled by an argument that finds a place for Russian in today's Ukraine that you entirely miss the point that Solzhenitsyn is a warning not a model.

No country is what it was 90 years ago. WE are the ones who must adjust. WE are the ones who have to focus on building the future rather than didko's Ukraiina if Ukraine is to have any future at all.

Bury Taras Shevchenko!

It's time to read Ivan Franko.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 1:05 a.m.    

Gaz is right. Recipe for success is to concentrate on being successful and not waste energy on blaming external factors. Blamers are called LOSERS in the anglo saxon culture. Come on Ukrainians, amaze us with accomplishments, be bright and successful. Stop finding excuses for being unsuccessful.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 10, 2009, 1:22 a.m.    

Mike, why don't you get those crayons Putin sent you and amaze yourself.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 6:12 p.m.    

A Russian and an American were arguing about free speech. The American said that in America, he was free to go to go to Washington D.C., climb the steps of the Capitol and shout at the top of his lungs that President Obama is an a-hole. That, declared the American, is free speech.

The Russian replied that in Russia he too had freedom of speech. He too was free to travel to Moscow, he too could climb the steps of the Kremlin and he too was free to shout at the top of his lungs that President Obama is an a-hole.

Its not news when a Russian writes a book that details why Russia should invade Ukraine. Call me when a Russian suggests ways that Ukraine can strengthen its independence.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 7:40 p.m.    

Why would a russian write about the strengtening of independence of a foreign country? It is as if i spend my time caring for my neighbour's garden. Some crazies write a lot of things, sure. The point is, the US was not too amused to see missiles based in Cuba. The same with russia. Independent Ukraine is ok if Ukraine does not play an agressive game.

Look, there is a huge difference between the US and Russia. The US was colonized by mostly one cres, the WASP. Surrounded by ok neighbours. Easy to defend. Russia has a huge soft belly: many small countries around. US policy the last years had the principle of the hyenas: many small bites to weaken the bait: natural ressources in Russia. Are you in love with a neigbour that talks bad about you to the neighbouhood, doesn't care for his garden, invites some hostile blokes and plays music hard all night? Guess not. I will do my best to educate the neighbour a bit.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 11:03 p.m.    

A simple solution is for Russia is to just leave the Ukrainian neighbourhood and go back to its side of the street. Also, take your garbage back with you!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 12:59 a.m.    

Please be more precise, facts etc

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 3:05 a.m.    

the black sea navy fleet is one of the "garbage" items I am sure. And Russian navy commanders making comments that they dont care for orders from Ukraine to leave and will only leave if Moscow tells surely add a bit of stink to that "garbage".

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 9:34 a.m.    

Yuriy, come on. Do you expect a Russian commander to obey to the orders of a Ukrainian citizen? There is a rental agreement. Even your friend Milliband advises Ukraine to "stick to the agreements".

It was ridiculous of Yushenko to expect the Russians to obey the Great Leader of The Orange Revolution.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 5:58 p.m.    

yes agreement till 2017, untill then Russia is welcome to stay, but i doubt they will be gone on January 1, 2018. But only time can settle this argument. Speaking of market prices that Putin likes to use so much, Russia is paying pennies for leasing that land, way below market prices.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 8:33 p.m.    

Time, yes, the end of the rental period :-)

If i rent my car i will not scream at my client that i need my car to go shopping. Matter of education. Nor will i talk behind my client's back that he is a bastard that he agreed taking my car for rent.

Prices... all a matter of agreements. A contract is a contract. Price fixed in the contract? So be it. Should have tought of a clause before signing.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 1:54 a.m.    

Yes, say you rent a car, then return the car back on the due date and dont say I'll return the car whenever I feel like cause I am macho Russian.

good analogy with the car btw

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 11:32 p.m.    

The contract end date not yet reached. You are like a white American that says that a black can only bring back the car damaged.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 6:47 p.m.    

I'll try to make this clear for the third time. It's not about the contract. I agree with you the contract should be honoured. Now that we agree on that.

My point is, Russian navy commanders have no right to make comments that they will leave when ever Moscow tells them and not when the contract expires, that is blatant disregard of Ukrainian authority and the contract that you so dearly love. Do you get it? If not please tell me which part of it don’t you get.

Also comments from Moscow mayor that Crimea or Simferopol should be Russian territory are not welcome. Why doesn’t Luzhkov go to America and tell them the same story about Alaska? My guess is, he is only tough against weaker opponents, concept known as a bully or as I would call it a pussy.

As for your comment: "You are like a white American that says that a black can only bring back the car damaged." I fail to see your point here… aside from terrible grammar.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 8:25 p.m.    

Yea, Mr. Bill, try that to pull that off at the steps of Capitol Hill and if security sees you, you'll be immediately arretsted and taken in for psychiatric evaluation.

The idea that Russia should invade Ukraine was created and pandered by Ukrainian nationalists without any provokation from Russia, so that they could get NATO protection, and cash for their budgets. I understand that you don't get that, and urge you to research issues instead of simply listening to propoganda from NBC, CNN, FOX, and BBC. I'm sure one of those is your favorite channel and now you are an expert on politics across the globe.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 10:58 p.m.    

And I suppose Russia is a big cuddly teddy bear?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 4:42 a.m.    

If I am angry at my government, not only am I free to stand outside the Capitol and burn an American flag in protest, the police would protect me from anyone who wished to try and stop me from doing it. If a Russian sought to protest America and someone here tried to stop you, the police would protect you too.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 18, 2009, 2:16 a.m.    

You are delusional.

Prove it. Try burning anything in front of Capitol Hill, and you'll be arrested and will spend lots of time being interrogated. You may not be charged with anything, but I assure that you will spend time behind bars and will be thorughly investigated. I guarantee you that.

If you want to prove me wrong. Go ahead and try it. If you will last whole 3 minutes burning american flag in front of Capital Hill I will buy you dinner at a nice restaurant. You must record it on video and it must last for at least 3 minutes.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 10:30 p.m.    

Russians and Ukrainians are like brother but Moscow politicians want to make us enemys. We should not be enemys and we should strenght our forces to keep Ukraine independent!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 7, 2009, 10:32 p.m.    

Good work Lukanov! Sorry for your history ..

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 6:25 p.m.    

MOST UKRAINIANS SHARE THE SAME OR SIMILAR HISTORY! :(:(:(

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 7, 2009, 9:07 a.m.    

Fortunately, I do not.

But, I do share thoughts of an author big time!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 12:31 a.m.    

I don't know about how Kievans should treat Russians. But I have noticed that besides beating and killing people of other ethnic groups, they seem more hostile to English-speakers lately.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 3:11 a.m.    

From the UK's Home Office:

In 2007-08, police recorded 4,823 racially or religiously motivated crimes in which somebody was injured, 4,320 crimes without injury, and 26,495 cases of of harassment.

There were also 4,005 cases of criminal damage related to hate crimes.

From the Moscow Human Rights Bureau:

In the RF, in the first 4 months of 2008:

57 people killed, 116 injured as a result of hate crimes – double the figure for 2007.

From Amnesty International:

In Ukraine, in the first 7 months of 2008:

4 people killed, 30 injured in hate crimes.

Physician, heal thyself.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 9:50 p.m.    

The above statistics tell us only that in the U.K. society takes such crimes seriously. In Kiev, daily attacks on Jews, Roma, Arabs, Turks, Indians, Africans, etc., are dismissed by police officials as mere hooliganism. And only foreigners are stupid enough to call the police here in the first place. Sorry, I love Ukraine, but the truth is the truth.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, midnight    

Amnesty International is a paid organ of state propaganda with a vested interest in camouflaging hate crimes? Good to know.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 5:41 a.m.    

Oh, I bet you are the prime authority on this subject and you are not "Anglo", so please stop engaging in simplistic propaganda because we all know where its coming from!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 9:09 a.m.    

Wheeew, the hand of Moscow again, eh?

I think i will start blaming Moscow all the time aswell. Seems to be the solution to everything. No more self introspection, self critique. All the fault of Moscow and Putin.

Fell off a tree in childhood? The hand of Moscow was shaking the branches. Anyone disagreeing with this is an agent of Moscow.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 1:36 p.m.    

Mike 2 is the best although a top agent from Moscow who makes a lot of money here writing unpatriotic comments

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 8, 2009, 2:34 p.m.    

Anyone disagreeing with me now will be an agent of Moscow sent in to destabilize the situation. Agents can only do it for money as it is impossible that anyone disagrees with me as i am right.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 6:17 a.m.    

Mike, maybe you are just a loser.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 11:29 p.m.    

You are on Putin's payroll

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 4:35 a.m.    

Mike2, I thought you said USA was sending in agents to destabilize the region? You must work for the CIA. Why have you not reported in lately? Your handler at the company says he lost touch with you.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 10:18 a.m.    

The guy is in prison right now. Robert Fletcher, another one sent in to HELP Ukrainians help themselves.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 3:10 a.m.    

How to treat Russians? How about nothing special?

The self-identity quest cannot be solved by looking at the mirror. Nor outside.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 9:56 a.m.    

Russians should treat them selfs like humans and not like animals .. Propaganda from Moscow must stop! Ukraine want normal life like any european nation.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 10:02 a.m.    

Russian Federation shall fall apart like Soviet Union does ... Russians are very stupid people if is not so why are they poor, with heads pumped up of creap? Ukraine wants to be free from that nacionalistic shi.! Are Russian bigest racists and nacionalist - I think so! Poor Russians, no body likes them!

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 11:28 p.m.    

Come to Ukraine to have a look :-)

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 11, 2009, 7:20 a.m.    

Speak for yourself.

In Ukraine only people who likes Russians are Russians or half Russians.

If Russians want to have other people liking them they should start respecting others, and especially Ukrainians from whom they stoled the history and the name for their state.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 9:16 p.m.    

This writeup just reinforced the thought that Ukraine is a society that is heading for a trouble. Ukraine is behaving as a teenager, insisting on getting the independence and respect, but every day demonstrating the inability to show responsibility. The obsession with Russia proves that Ukraine would not have a reason for existance, and might even implode, had it not been for Russia. And like a teenager, cannot accept that mommy and daddy might just stop financing his or hers car wrecks. What will it take for some Ukrainians to accept the fact that Russia does not have to give subsidies. And what it will take for some Ukrainians to understand that the games they play with the lease of the Navy port may prove to be more dangerous then the teenage mind can understand. There is nothing wrong to be an Ukrainian nationalist, for as long as that does not imply automatic anti-Russian rant. Hope the teenager grows up.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 9:34 p.m.    

The problem is that, in certain respects, Russia is acting like a 70-year-old with a bottle of Viagra.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 11:10 p.m.    

I have to agree. In what other country you will find articles with such headlines.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 10, 2009, 12:41 p.m.    

FromUSAwithLove ,

hereinafter you may read it as "HOW SHOULD I TREAT MEXICANS CROSSING ELLEGALLY US BORDER ?" ... it seems like you can understand it better !

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 10, 2009, 8:47 p.m.    

Yea, thats a question asked by all the poor American victocrats who's job as a landskaper and strawberry collector was stolen by a Mexican. I know all about those people. Instead of developing skills that are in demand they bitch all the time how much Mexicans hurt them. You are right on the money, in some way it does resemble Ukrainian victocrats.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 9, 2009, 11:27 p.m.    

Guest, very good analysis of the situation. The teenager especially has an allergic situation when the parents don't let him steal in Mummy's purse.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 10, 2009, 12:16 p.m.    

I do not think you understand the things going in Ukraine well ... being very prejudged against Ukrainians , you should rememeber that similar questions and anti-Russian campaigns were risen in almost all East European contries from the Baltic states to Bulgaria catching about 20 Russian spies annualy ... lol ... as to the Gypsies , I wonder what secrets did they keep ? Eveyrone passed this way and it was like a turn point to follow new direction ... so what ? Anger at Russia was a good sign to share Western values and to belong to the West ! What is now ? Are the East Europeans still agnry at Russia as they were in the middle of 1990s ? Or they became more tolerant towards it and do not believe in Western fairytales any longer ? I agree the problem is that Ukraine is very slow in development and its power is very weak ... But , is there anyone interested in Ukraine to be strong ?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 7, 2009, 9 a.m.    

Like to read fairy tales of Moskovite "historians"?

Find some good sources of information and learn true history of both nations. Then you'll understand who is teenager and who is respected elder.

There is one from CIA World Fact Book:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/up.html

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 4:14 a.m.    

Ukraine needs to stop thinking about Russia and start thinking about how to improve the quality of life of its people. The Ukranian people need to be willing to accept some new ideas and demand better government. Don't wait for the government to solve your problems. A joke in America goes something like the last thing you want to hear someone say is "I'm from the government and I am here to help." Your engineers need to study your factories and propose ways to make them more efficient. Take those plans to the government and say this is what we should do. The government should then be working with the international community to get the money needed. Government needs to get out of the peoples way, not make the decisions for them.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 6:07 p.m.    

Mr. Bill, helloooooo, you are contradicting yourself. What business does government have being in charge of factories?

Ukraine should be moving away from that.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 4:29 a.m.    

The thing that makes me most sad about eastern europe is how much energy is wasted on blood feuds. I understand that for centuries, group after group has overrun the same ground and that lends itself to some pretty deep seated hate. However, it makes people pretty unproductive when they spend all their time thinking about how much they hate some other group. When I look at Israel and palestinians, the thing that I cannot cannot comprehend is how they will fight to a standstill over literally inches of soil. If I could wave a magic wand over Ukraine, I would make it so every Ukranian looked only to the future. All you would see is the better life you were creating for your children. You would weep once for the past, and then never again look back. If you did that, you would be so successful that you would own Russia ten times over. I will not say that in America we do not hate. We too are humans. But we still find a way to work together.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 6:28 a.m.    

As someone who spent over 7 years in Russia from 1994 to 2002 (until I my visa was cancelled by the FSB as I was considered a "threat to national security" due to teaching abstinence and family values), another two years in Mariupol, Ukraine (during the Orange Revolution) and another two years in Tbilisi, Georgia-- I must say "Bravo", Mr. Lukanov. You nailed a very real problem there.

And all you morons saying that Ukraine should stop blaming Russia? You obviously know nothing about the reality of the situation in that country and shut your mouths and be grateful for the free countries that you live in. You have no idea what Russia has done and is still doing to interfere and ruin the lives in every country cursed to share its borders.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 6:22 p.m.    

Russian population is decreasing. I can see how a foreighner teaching abstinence can be interpreted as threat to national secuity. I'm surprised they let you do it for seven years. Thank god that Putin is much more capable that Eltsin.

What exactly is "Russia" doing to "ruin lives" of its neighbours?

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 10, 2009, 11:18 a.m.    

dont you know?

You get paid enough to post your crap and disinformation on these sites

USA with love?... that should be from the Kremlin with love

{# <-- parent id goes here
Yulia Blindyuk March 10, 2009, 12:27 p.m.    

please respect your opponents

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 11, 2009, 6:56 a.m.    

Russians as individuals are very diverse. In the same family 2 sisters or brothers often have extremely opposite opinions about the same things and especially political opinions. So, don't make any judgement about what you were told. The sister of that personality may have totally different views. As for government ... Who knows? While they still have Chechnya and plenty of other issues in the Caucasus it is necessary to be as far from all that as possible. Also, Russian-speaking does not mean Russian. They have so many ethnic groups which got the word "Russian" in the birth certificate many generations ago. In the reality, they may be very far from the Russian ethnicity.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous Feb. 25, 2009, 5:40 a.m.    

Someone posted to this forum saying they did not believe me when I said an American can burn an American flag in protest and the police would protect them while they did it. Not only is that true, but I've got something even better. In America, there is something called the Exclusionary Rule. If the police break the law in the course of collecting evidence to prove you committed a crime, the evidence cannot be used against you in court. For example, you are driving down the road with a kilo of cocaine in your trunk. The policeman notices that you look Russian, and for no other reason than that, he stops you and searches you. While searching you, he finds the cocaine in the trunk. It will take your lawyer about five minutes to get the evidence of cocaine thrown out. No evidence, no trial. No trial, no conviction. You walk free. It happens all the time. in fact, its the first thing a lawyer looks for here.

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 7, 2009, 8:43 a.m.    

You watch to many movies...

In real life here in USA everything is much more down to earth.

Cop can stop one just out of blue and give him some tickets.

It'll take a good lawyer and a lot of money to prove one's innocence.

I do have an experience...

{# <-- parent id goes here
Anonymous March 13, 2009, 3:31 a.m.    

Looks like I wasted my time going to law school. I helped a young kid once who was ticketed for drinking alcohol in his car in a parking lot behind a church. The police were alerted to his presence by someone in a nearby home who called in an anonymous tip saying he was acting suspicious. The police pulled into the parking lot and surrounded him, found the beer and ticketed him. Under the law, the police may not detain you, not even for one second, without a reasonable and articulable suspicion that a crime is afoot. "Acting suspicious" is not a crime in America. They should have walked up and asked "Excuse me good citizen, have you seen anyone acting suspicious around here?" Whereupon they would have seen the beer and would have had a good reason to stop him. Instead, they rushed him. I got the ticket tossed out. Since he was poor and I was new and needed the work, I got paid twenty dollars.

{# <-- parent id goes here

KyivPost

© 1995–2014 Public Media

Web links to Kyiv Post material are allowed provided that they contain a URL hyperlink to the www.kyivpost.com material and a maximum 500-character extract of the story. Otherwise, all materials contained on this site are protected by copyright law and may not be reproduced without the prior written permission of Public Media at news@kyivpost.com
All information of the Interfax-Ukraine news agency placed on this web site is designed for internal use only. Its reproduction or distribution in any form is prohibited without a written permission of Interfax-Ukraine.